The Organization of Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries don’t think there is an Uyghur genocide. So let’s focus on the one that’s actually real and everyone -except Western regimes- acknowledge it is happening.
Fun fact: If you tried googling the OIC report on Uyghur I linked here, you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative https://www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+report
The only countries accusing China of mishandling the ETIM in Xinjiang are its geopolitical rivals in the west. Muslim countries and the global south side with China on this.
…separatism and religious extremism has caused enormous damage to people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang, which has seriously infringed upon human rights, including right to life, health and development. Faced with the grave challenge of terrorism and extremism, China has undertaken a series of counter-terrorism and deradicalization measures in Xinjiang, including setting up vocational education and training centers. Now safety and security has returned to Xinjiang and the fundamental human rights of people of all ethnic groups there are safeguarded. The past three consecutive years has seen not a single terrorist attack in Xinjiang and people there enjoy a stronger sense of happiness, fulfillment and security. We note with appreciation that human rights are respected and protected in China in the process of counter-terrorism and deradicalization.
We appreciate China’s commitment to openness and transparency. China has invited a number of diplomats, international organizations officials and journalist to Xinjiang to witness the progress of the human rights cause and the outcomes of counter-terrorism and deradicalization there. What they saw and heard in Xinjiang completely contradicted what was reported in the media. We call on relevant countries to refrain from employing unfounded charges against China based on unconfirmed information before they visit Xinjiang.
Also you can literally just visit Xinjiang and see it for yourself. There’s no restrictions on travel now that covid is mostly over there. There’s tons of videos on YouTube doing just that.
It’s the fucking US state department lmao of course they’re gonna say whatever bs they can. The point is that even they stopped short.
What they have done in Xinjiang after ETIM’s attacks is built vocational training centres, infrastructure, and started integrating it better into the rest of China’s economy, i.e the core material reasons why someone would have to resort to extremism in the first place. Which is a far better response than other countries and has been successful, hence the muslim and global south countries approving of it.
Canada’s residential schools were forced on an entire population. By most estimates, the proportion of Uyghurs in these “camps” is similar to the proportion of Black people in prison in America. Is America conducting crimes against humanity or a genocide on Black people? Ok, maybe.
frankly, the US is STILL fighting in the middle east after 9/11. the chinese has shown more restraint and milder treatment towards their local terrorist group. so i’d say they’ve handled it better than the west ever could.
Yeah yeah, everyone knows you don’t actually believe that any bad thing can be described as a genocide and nobody can question it; hell, the front page of your comment history has you referring to the Nanjing Massacre in a positive way because it happened to China. Spare us the bleeding heart routine.
Don’t we expect to have an increasing number of Chinese people on Lemmy? It’s not controlled by any western government, and they’re ~20% of all people.
True. Just found it extremely unlikely cuz every Chinese person I’ve interacted with deny western media’s claims. And their claim about it being difficult to travel Xinjiang is just wrong after all; same “restrictions” as any other place in China or most other countries.
“The opinions of the nations we’ve been colonizing and committing genocide on for hundreds of years don’t matter. Only that of the nations that are currently supporting a genocide in Gaza do.”
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide
So basically you’re saying “don’t worry they’re just doing crimes against humanity but not technically genocide.” Not a great argument IMHO
It’s the fucking US state department lmao of course they’re gonna say whatever bs they can. The point is that even they stopped short.
What they have done in Xinjiang after ETIM’s attacks is built vocational training centres, infrastructure, and started integrating it better into the rest of China’s economy, i.e the core material reasons why someone would have to resort to extremism in the first place. Which is a far better response than other countries and has been successful, hence the muslim and global south countries approving of it.
The difference between your average liberal and a tankie is that liberals will openly say that there were no WMDs in Iraq and that the invasion was a mistake.
But liberals will still fall in line and support the current war as they always do, only after the fact they reasses their position.
Find a tankie that would ever actually criticize the CCP the same way.
They only say that because enough time has passed. When it was current they were all on board and were calling everyone who disagreed ‘Saddam Lovers’. Just like how in 20 years they’ll all be saying that they never believed the Uyghur genocides claims, but how dare those tankies doubt [insert current atrocity propaganda here]!
The Iraq War inspired mass protests immediately that set records in several American cities, but sure.
You are correct though that the narrative has shifted with time. So I take it that this has also happened in China, such that someone could organize a protest on the Tiananmen anniversary, right?
Also, just realized that you said that the invasion was a ‘mistake’, not a deliberate lie. Is there a single accusation that the West has leveled against its enemies that you don’t automatically believe?
I mean, yes, Bush lied to the American public. This is not particularly controversial.
And given that the original point was the difference between the ability and willingness of liberals to criticize our own governments relative to tankies, Tiananmen is a perfectly relevant topic, though I’m hardly surprised that you’d clearly like to avoid it. And if randomly bringing up supposedly unrelated topics is something to avoid, might I ask why you brought up WMDs in Iraq in a thread about the Uyghers in the first place?
The biggest problem is the number likely being exaggerated.
The real amount of Uyghurs in concentration camps is completely unknown but guestimated around 30.000 to 100.000.
The 1 million number is by a single source called Radio Free Asia which does not offer any evidence.
The American way to spread propaganda is to take something that is true, and then heavily exaggerate it without providing evidence for the most extreme claims.
Anyone still repeating the “Uighur genocide” conspiracy theory in this day and age - long after the western media has backed away from it, independent bodies have found no evidence, Isreal demonstrating that you can’t ‘secretly’ genocide a population without evidence getting out, and all the original proponents of the conspiracy now one hundred percent on board for the genocide of Palestinians - is either knowingly lying or terminally propagandized.
Listen man, even in the shitty college I went to we weren’t allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Why? Because it’s often laced with misinformation and has no standards for its citations.
Also when you’re trying to argue against a genocide being CIA propaganda, you cannot site literally the lowest effort citation that the CIA could ever hope for if they wanted to spread propaganda for any given thing.
Listen man, even in the shitty college I went to we weren’t allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Why? Because it’s often laced with misinformation and has no standards for its citations.
Listen man, even in the very good college that I went to, everyone starts at Wikipedia and then uses it’s sources since if they’re good sources then they’ll be a helpful jumping off point.
Also when you’re trying to argue against a genocide being CIA propaganda, you cannot site literally the lowest effort citation that the CIA could ever hope for if they wanted to spread propaganda for any given thing.
Peer reviewed journal articles are not the lowest effort citation that the CIA could manipulate. Again, the wiki article has numerous sources (which I’ve read through), do you have any sources to contradict the information that they contain?
You do realize that… The peer review process is not, inherently, robust, right?
There’s a reason different publication venues have different levels of prestige. Nature and Science? Very prestigious. The Lancet? Very prestigious. NeurIPS? Very prestigious. The Journal of Genocide Research? Not so prestigious.
That article is a masterclass in laundering false information to make propaganda palatable to impressionable people. From the very first paragraph it regurgitates false information. The funny thing is that the claim that more than one million Uyghers are interned does have a source, but they didn’t specify it. Probably because the source’s reliability has been dismantled and they think leaving it out is less blatant. Garbage journalistic standards either way, and obvious dishonest propagandizing. For the rest of the article, we already know the media spread misinformation about Xinjiang. Compiling it in a Wikipedia article does not make it any more legitimate or convincing.
You realise that Wikipedia is not one iota more credible than a lemmy comment right? You won’t believe people here, but funnyguy1234 (actual name of one that articles writers) is a font of academic rigor? Also lol at well sourced - you never bothered to check them, if you did you wouldn’t say that. Here’s a challenge; what were the pieces of primary evidence that convinced you?
Once when I compared the Uyghur genocide conspiracy to WMDs in Iraq, I had a Lemmy Worlder unironically reply “They’re completely different! WMDs in Iraq was just a claim from the Bush admin, but we have satellite pictures of the Uyghur genocide!”.
They are completely different and this is a dumbass comment.
Just because a massive organization made up of millions of people lied once doesn’t mean everything else they ever say is a lie. That’s dumbass child level reasoning. Present sourced evidence that contradicts the sourced infromation in the wikipedia article or don’t bother commenting.
Perhaps you’re unaware of many of the US’s atrocities, because many are hidden or distorted through the above methods. Nobody lies like the imperial core propaganda machine.
a few of the journal articles, though many of the reports from human rights groups, and the sheer volume of independent reports from different new outlets (big and small) is also rather compelling (as well as bellingcat’s reporting):
Is there any reason to think “prolewiki” is more reliable than wikipedia?
ProleWiki is a collaborative Marxist-Leninist project aiming to build an anti-imperialist communist encyclopedia with information on current events, communist parties worldwide, countries, as well as hosting a library of texts important to the international communist movement.
Seems like it’s openly biased. And while I can appreciate the honesty, I’m not sure how it can be viewed as reliable.
Wikipedia is extremely unreliable and biased, and not even on political topics, even linguistical and scientific articles are prone to huge issues. (see: Scottish Gaelic) If you wish to call prolewiki as biased, I must tell you that wikipedia is even worse, it just has a more liberal bias. Follow their sources and you will see. ProleWiki discloses the bias up front, and has an squad of source patrollers who make sure when a claim is made, it is grounded in reality that can be sourced. Sure, there aren’t that many articles on it yet, but we strive to set a high standard because the slightest weak link in the project will be used by people like yourself to discredit us.
Because it’s the wiki of the people instead of the wiki of bourgeoisie interests, why the fuck else
Communistic propaganda
lol, and you think the slop you’ve seen your entire life has been absolutely unbiased?
We do analyze matters though the lens of marxism-lenninism, we make sure our sources and research is decent, and if that’s “communist propaganda” to you well, your loss lmao.
But I have a hard time to take criticism from people who believe Adrian Zenz on anything
But I have a hard time to take criticism from people who believe Adrian Zenz on anything
That wasn’t me though, I just barged into this conversation to talk about our perceptions and definitions of truth in these online encyclopedias more so than about Uyghurs.
Personally, I’m not quite sold on the Uyghur narrative on either side but I also haven’t looked into it a lot.
lol, and you think the slop you’ve seen your entire life has been absolutely unbiased?
Yeah, nothing is (which includes Marxist-Leninism), but I unfortunately don’t have the time and resources to not trust something.
Even two and a half years ago, AP news - one of the leading proponents of the genocide theory - was already walking back their claims from genocides to just nebulous oppression (and even saying that was over, so don’t ask for current evidence).
Can you find many examples of mainstream media from the last 6 months still claiming an ongoing genocide?
asks for evidence that mainstream media has backed away from genocide claims.
Gets given an example of one of the most gung-ho on the genocide theory outlets already backing away from the claim years ago, instead falling back to nebulous claims of conveniently hard to demonstrate oppression.
“Well that just proves there is a genocide!”
Least bad faith sinophobe. How about you provide recent sources like I asked.
IMHO, if there’s smoke, there’s fire.
Big believer in the white genocide in South Africa then? Found those WMDs in Iraq?
Subjugation like… By applying the same standard to ethnic minorities that they do to the Han majority? People don’t realize how far affirmative action in China used to go. There were protests against it. Weibo kept exploding complaining about it.
There is no evidence linking the activity to the Chinese government
Mr. Zenz, who is now based in the U.S., said the letters are fraudulent and called the activity a smear campaign to try to discredit him. He said he has never received funding from Mr. Rubio or Mr. Bannon, and that he doesn’t accept money from politicians.
Thank you for this article. I love reading wsj and other western cope. Here’s the unpaywalled article for others to enjoy https://archive.md/6cRwr
Nowhere in the article is the “smear campaign” debunked. It’s only described. Nowhere it’s debunked that Zenz actually does speak mandarin and nowhere is debunked that he isn’t actually part of a fundamental christian rapture sect https://www.amazon.com/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-Tribulation/dp/144976908X - that is outlawed in China (based) - and thus has an interest in negatively portraying China.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink.
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
I hate how it’s always done like this too. When a genocide has been lied about it should be just as televised as when the lying was happening. Mostly because now instead of getting apologies from all of my friends for calling me a genocide denier they’ll just still think it was a genocide and I’ll just never talk to them about it again or else I’ll have to come across as smug.
And resisting urges like that is the only reason I still have any friends in the first place.
My comments still get deleted on lemmy.world. Most Lemmy instances are all-in for Five Eyes propaganda. You’d think they’d be better than corporate social media platforms, but not so much.
The standards are part of RAND’s ongoing project on “truth decay”: a phenomenon that RAND researchers describe as “the diminishing role that facts, data, and analysis play in our political and civic discourse.”
The funny thing about it is that news is no more or less truthful than it’s always been, it’s just more upfront about it. People are tribal, and they’ve been told that their tribe is flawless while the other tribe is flawed.
If you think about this for a second and apply some basic game theory, you’d realize what the natural steady state is.
I know that’s true in the US, specifically. The FCC abandoned the Fairness doctrine, and Citizens United v. FEC removed even the semblance of a barrier between the capitalist class and the political machine. Now most corporate media outlets pretty nakedly align themselves with one of the two political parties. But since both parties always ultimately answer to the capitalist class, these changes are largely cosmetic. It’s still a bunch of kayfabe in a rigged game.
@davel@lemmy.ml I agree, all we can do is highlight that this is happening, but we shouldn’t be surprised that most instances won’t be far from political mainstream in the west
I’ve great news for you then, because China never started genociding the Uyghur people.
As part of the new Cold War, the US organized and funded terrorists for the purposes of destabilizing the Xinjiang region of China. And after those destabilization efforts failed, CIA cut-out NGOs like the World Uyghur Congress spun the fable of the “Uyghur genocide,” again as part of the new Cold War with China. The US wants to balkanize the country or ideally regime-change it entirely.
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
In addition to the arbitrary detention of Uyghurs in state-sponsored camps, government policies have included forced labor,[5][6] suppression of Uyghur religious practices,[7] political indoctrination,[8] forced sterilization,[9] forced contraception,[10][11] and forced abortion.[12][13]
Is this the part of the story where you’re reminded that forced sterilization and forced abortion has also been applied to the Han majority in support of one-child policy? No? Oh.
Why is it that you say these falsehoods here in this forum but on the other social media you complain about the Chinese state and you push for democracy in China? Where are the photographs that you said you have of the Tiananmen Square massacre?
Also there’s a PBS Frontline Documentary that, albeit having a western slant, is telling vastly different story than what gets regurgitated on Reddit and other parts of lemmy
Why is it that you say these falsehoods here in this forum but on the other social media you complain about the Chinese state and you push for democracy in China?
Let me guess, in 2002 you were calling anyone who didn’t believe Iraq had WMDs a “Saddam lover”.
Removed by mod
Who can tell them though? US, which is actively enabling genocide not to mention other atrocities it made all over the world?
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation and most Turkic and Muslim countries don’t think there is an Uyghur genocide. So let’s focus on the one that’s actually real and everyone -except Western regimes- acknowledge it is happening.
Fun fact: If you tried googling the OIC report on Uyghur I linked here, you will only get results for western outlets condemning it. It is clear who is using censorship to control the narrative https://www.google.com/search?q=oic+uyghur+report
Bruh the fucking US State department admits there’s no such thing
The only countries accusing China of mishandling the ETIM in Xinjiang are its geopolitical rivals in the west. Muslim countries and the global south side with China on this.
35+ mostly muslim UN states have approved of how China handled this after sending delegates and diplomats to Xinjiang:
And as another user said, this is a great video about Xinjiang with sources in the description.
Also you can literally just visit Xinjiang and see it for yourself. There’s no restrictions on travel now that covid is mostly over there. There’s tons of videos on YouTube doing just that.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this is a great video about Xinjiang
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Removed by mod
It’s the fucking US state department lmao of course they’re gonna say whatever bs they can. The point is that even they stopped short.
What they have done in Xinjiang after ETIM’s attacks is built vocational training centres, infrastructure, and started integrating it better into the rest of China’s economy, i.e the core material reasons why someone would have to resort to extremism in the first place. Which is a far better response than other countries and has been successful, hence the muslim and global south countries approving of it.
Sounds exactly like Canada’s residential schools. Which is considered an attempt at genocide
Canada’s residential schools were forced on an entire population. By most estimates, the proportion of Uyghurs in these “camps” is similar to the proportion of Black people in prison in America. Is America conducting crimes against humanity or a genocide on Black people? Ok, maybe.
Removed by mod
I see that you don’t actually know what “moving the goalposts” means
What a strange way to say “kidnaping children and sending their parents to concentration camps”.
Projection. Ig it’s hard for the western mind to imagine a government tackling the material reasons for a problem instead of just harming people.
And the goal posts go sailing away at mach speed.
Removed by mod
Bruh
frankly, the US is STILL fighting in the middle east after 9/11. the chinese has shown more restraint and milder treatment towards their local terrorist group. so i’d say they’ve handled it better than the west ever could.
Lol irrelevant.
China’s treatment of these people is indefensible. Defending it in any regard just leaves you wrong my dude.
Look at all the people being clowns trying to declare nothing is happening because “official genocide” hasn’t been committed
They still don’t call Gaza genocide. Why the fuck are you listening to them about it at all??? lol
“If anything bad happened at all, it’s basically the second holocaust, and you can’t argue otherwise”
Somehow I’m thinking you’re not willing to apply this standard to Ukraine, or any western country.
Removed by mod
Yeah yeah, everyone knows you don’t actually believe that any bad thing can be described as a genocide and nobody can question it; hell, the front page of your comment history has you referring to the Nanjing Massacre in a positive way because it happened to China. Spare us the bleeding heart routine.
you got a cult bombing your public buildings for years, and attempts to identify and prevent such attacks by standard means have failed.
how do you stop it?
Bomb where those cult people are from!
Removed by mod
How about we say you’re also from Xinjiang while we’re at it?
[Sorry for a tangent]
Don’t we expect to have an increasing number of Chinese people on Lemmy? It’s not controlled by any western government, and they’re ~20% of all people.
True. Just found it extremely unlikely cuz every Chinese person I’ve interacted with deny western media’s claims. And their claim about it being difficult to travel Xinjiang is just wrong after all; same “restrictions” as any other place in China or most other countries.
Very compelling evidence.
Removed by mod
And the people opposing China are universally tied to the US through either NATO, Five Eyes, or US military occupation (Japan, South Korea).
Are you one of those people who think only white people matter?
Removed by mod
Big believer in white genocide in South Africa then? Ukraine’s genocide of Donbas?
Removed by mod
Poor baby doesn’t like being held to their own standards.
Imagine being so fucking racist jesus christ.
“The opinions of the nations we’ve been colonizing and committing genocide on for hundreds of years don’t matter. Only that of the nations that are currently supporting a genocide in Gaza do.”
The first paragraph of the first link you shared:
So basically you’re saying “don’t worry they’re just doing crimes against humanity but not technically genocide.” Not a great argument IMHO
Right below this comment
Removed by mod
Found those WMDs in Iraq yet?
Removed by mod
But liberals will still fall in line and support the current war as they always do, only after the fact they reasses their position.
I didn’t know the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation were a tankie group. Does that mean all Muslims are tankies?
They only say that because enough time has passed. When it was current they were all on board and were calling everyone who disagreed ‘Saddam Lovers’. Just like how in 20 years they’ll all be saying that they never believed the Uyghur genocides claims, but how dare those tankies doubt [insert current atrocity propaganda here]!
The Iraq War inspired mass protests immediately that set records in several American cities, but sure.
You are correct though that the narrative has shifted with time. So I take it that this has also happened in China, such that someone could organize a protest on the Tiananmen anniversary, right?
I love how you chuds are still seething about the fact that your color revolution failed.
What a desperate attempt to change the topic.
Also, just realized that you said that the invasion was a ‘mistake’, not a deliberate lie. Is there a single accusation that the West has leveled against its enemies that you don’t automatically believe?
I mean, yes, Bush lied to the American public. This is not particularly controversial.
And given that the original point was the difference between the ability and willingness of liberals to criticize our own governments relative to tankies, Tiananmen is a perfectly relevant topic, though I’m hardly surprised that you’d clearly like to avoid it. And if randomly bringing up supposedly unrelated topics is something to avoid, might I ask why you brought up WMDs in Iraq in a thread about the Uyghers in the first place?
Sir, this is a
wendy’s(checks title) thread about the ongoing genocide that Israel is perpetrating in GazaIt was at the time. And there are still liberals who disagree
Nope, not doing it. This conversation is specifically about the Uyghur genocide conspiracy theory.
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation are tankies? Muslims are tankies?
Based if true
If you’re not white you’re a tankie.
Love reading the radlibs in this thread just coping with nothing substantial to say when their views are challanged
This isn’t reddit. There’s no corporation here to censor anything that challenges western propaganda.
Removed by mod
How many people died in the Uyghur genocide?
The biggest problem is the number likely being exaggerated.
The real amount of Uyghurs in concentration camps is completely unknown but guestimated around 30.000 to 100.000.
The 1 million number is by a single source called Radio Free Asia which does not offer any evidence.
The American way to spread propaganda is to take something that is true, and then heavily exaggerate it without providing evidence for the most extreme claims.
A good video on the Uyghur Genocide here
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
A good video on it here
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
It’s likely to be higher than that. Even the proportion of imprisoned Black people in America is higher than that.
Anyone still repeating the “Uighur genocide” conspiracy theory in this day and age - long after the western media has backed away from it, independent bodies have found no evidence, Isreal demonstrating that you can’t ‘secretly’ genocide a population without evidence getting out, and all the original proponents of the conspiracy now one hundred percent on board for the genocide of Palestinians - is either knowingly lying or terminally propagandized.
Who do I believe, a random smug lemmier, or a well sourced wikipedia article?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
Listen man, even in the shitty college I went to we weren’t allowed to use Wikipedia as a source. Why? Because it’s often laced with misinformation and has no standards for its citations.
Also when you’re trying to argue against a genocide being CIA propaganda, you cannot site literally the lowest effort citation that the CIA could ever hope for if they wanted to spread propaganda for any given thing.
Listen man, even in the very good college that I went to, everyone starts at Wikipedia and then uses it’s sources since if they’re good sources then they’ll be a helpful jumping off point.
Peer reviewed journal articles are not the lowest effort citation that the CIA could manipulate. Again, the wiki article has numerous sources (which I’ve read through), do you have any sources to contradict the information that they contain?
You do realize that… The peer review process is not, inherently, robust, right?
There’s a reason different publication venues have different levels of prestige. Nature and Science? Very prestigious. The Lancet? Very prestigious. NeurIPS? Very prestigious. The Journal of Genocide Research? Not so prestigious.
Bro it too late to get your money back from that college?
Imagine citing Wikipedia lmao
You’d get laughed out of any academic context in a heartbeat
Removed by mod
That article is a masterclass in laundering false information to make propaganda palatable to impressionable people. From the very first paragraph it regurgitates false information. The funny thing is that the claim that more than one million Uyghers are interned does have a source, but they didn’t specify it. Probably because the source’s reliability has been dismantled and they think leaving it out is less blatant. Garbage journalistic standards either way, and obvious dishonest propagandizing. For the rest of the article, we already know the media spread misinformation about Xinjiang. Compiling it in a Wikipedia article does not make it any more legitimate or convincing.
Let’s see a source for your argument? The wiki links to journal articles to back up it’s claims, what do you have?
The burden of proof is on you to prove that a genocide is actually happening. (One can’t prove a negative)
There is a chinese context to it though: https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
You realise that Wikipedia is not one iota more credible than a lemmy comment right? You won’t believe people here, but funnyguy1234 (actual name of one that articles writers) is a font of academic rigor? Also lol at well sourced - you never bothered to check them, if you did you wouldn’t say that. Here’s a challenge; what were the pieces of primary evidence that convinced you?
I was convinced by this Bell¿ncat satellite image of a concentration camp interning over a million people: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=31.416944&lon=34.365234&z=11&m=w
Once when I compared the Uyghur genocide conspiracy to WMDs in Iraq, I had a Lemmy Worlder unironically reply “They’re completely different! WMDs in Iraq was just a claim from the Bush admin, but we have satellite pictures of the Uyghur genocide!”.
They are completely different and this is a dumbass comment.
Just because a massive organization made up of millions of people lied once doesn’t mean everything else they ever say is a lie. That’s dumbass child level reasoning. Present sourced evidence that contradicts the sourced infromation in the wikipedia article or don’t bother commenting.
It seems you are unaware that these kinds of lies are rampant and have been documented for decades, to the point where reliable patterns have emerged:
A five minute primer: Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
.
Perhaps you’re unaware of many of the US’s atrocities, because many are hidden or distorted through the above methods. Nobody lies like the imperial core propaganda machine.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Noam Chomsky - The 5 Filters of the Mass Media Machine
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Uh yeah it is, it sources it’s information
Yeah, and those sources are often dog shit.
They’re better than yours, the ones in that article link to journal articles, you’ve provided absolutely nothing.
Which journal articles did you find compelling?
a few of the journal articles, though many of the reports from human rights groups, and the sheer volume of independent reports from different new outlets (big and small) is also rather compelling (as well as bellingcat’s reporting):
You spelled NATOpedia wrong.
Is there any reason to think “prolewiki” is more reliable than wikipedia?
Seems like it’s openly biased. And while I can appreciate the honesty, I’m not sure how it can be viewed as reliable.
Wikipedia is extremely unreliable and biased, and not even on political topics, even linguistical and scientific articles are prone to huge issues. (see: Scottish Gaelic) If you wish to call prolewiki as biased, I must tell you that wikipedia is even worse, it just has a more liberal bias. Follow their sources and you will see. ProleWiki discloses the bias up front, and has an squad of source patrollers who make sure when a claim is made, it is grounded in reality that can be sourced. Sure, there aren’t that many articles on it yet, but we strive to set a high standard because the slightest weak link in the project will be used by people like yourself to discredit us.
Disclaimer: I am a ProleWiki contributor.
So you’re aiming at truth, not communistic propaganda? I’m wondering why you/they choose to call it ProleWiki.
Was what I quoted up there a weak link? It’s on the footer of every page.
Because it’s the wiki of the people instead of the wiki of bourgeoisie interests, why the fuck else
lol, and you think the slop you’ve seen your entire life has been absolutely unbiased? We do analyze matters though the lens of marxism-lenninism, we make sure our sources and research is decent, and if that’s “communist propaganda” to you well, your loss lmao. But I have a hard time to take criticism from people who believe Adrian Zenz on anything
That wasn’t me though, I just barged into this conversation to talk about our perceptions and definitions of truth in these online encyclopedias more so than about Uyghurs.
Personally, I’m not quite sold on the Uyghur narrative on either side but I also haven’t looked into it a lot.
Yeah, nothing is (which includes Marxist-Leninism), but I unfortunately don’t have the time and resources to not trust something.
Is there any reason to think wikipedia is reliable?
Well of course it is, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
/s, slightly
Removed by mod
Can you provide a source for your claim that “western media has backed away from the claim of Uighur genocide”?
Even two and a half years ago, AP news - one of the leading proponents of the genocide theory - was already walking back their claims from genocides to just nebulous oppression (and even saying that was over, so don’t ask for current evidence).
Can you find many examples of mainstream media from the last 6 months still claiming an ongoing genocide?
This article seems to say that China has shifted to subtler methods of subjugation, possibly due to Western sanctions. Not that it was fabricated.
I’m not here to argue about the definition of genocide. IMHO, if there’s smoke, there’s fire.
Least bad faith sinophobe. How about you provide recent sources like I asked.
Big believer in the white genocide in South Africa then? Found those WMDs in Iraq?
Subjugation like… By applying the same standard to ethnic minorities that they do to the Han majority? People don’t realize how far affirmative action in China used to go. There were protests against it. Weibo kept exploding complaining about it.
Can you provide a source that a genocide is actually happening?
Inb4 ASPI, Zenz, Abbas, Radio Free, NED
https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/xinjiang
For the uninformed, Radio Free Asia is literally US state propaganda (a holdover from the first Cold War), the NED is a CIA cut-out, and Adrian Zenz is a joke.
I think there is a [smear campaign against Adrian Zenz])https://www.wsj.com/articles/pro-beijing-online-campaign-targets-u-s-based-xinjiang-researcher-cybersecurity-firm-says-11659607252), more here.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/articles/2021/chinas-disappeared-uyghurs-what-satellite-images-reveal.html and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/24/china-imprisoning-uighurs-satellite-images-xinjiang are other sources based on what can be learned from satellite imagery. There are also interviews with escapees, e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2021/08/uyghur-genocide-china-us-immigrant/619806/ https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/9/10/escape-from-xinjiang-muslim-uighurs-speak-of-china-persecution https://thewire.in/rights/china-uighurs-xinjiang-camps-human-rights.
Thank you for this article. I love reading wsj and other western cope. Here’s the unpaywalled article for others to enjoy https://archive.md/6cRwr
Nowhere in the article is the “smear campaign” debunked. It’s only described. Nowhere it’s debunked that Zenz actually does speak mandarin and nowhere is debunked that he isn’t actually part of a fundamental christian rapture sect https://www.amazon.com/Worthy-Escape-Believers-Raptured-Tribulation/dp/144976908X - that is outlawed in China (based) - and thus has an interest in negatively portraying China.
Satellite Images like they had from WMD in Iraq? I wonder why these are always so blurry in 2020?
Also RAND lol https://www.rand.org/about/how-we-are-funded.html Check out how theyre funded
Anectodes. If you want to see what a genocide looks like look to gaza
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
Sadly, I think most of the time it is the second case.
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink.
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
I hate how it’s always done like this too. When a genocide has been lied about it should be just as televised as when the lying was happening. Mostly because now instead of getting apologies from all of my friends for calling me a genocide denier they’ll just still think it was a genocide and I’ll just never talk to them about it again or else I’ll have to come across as smug.
And resisting urges like that is the only reason I still have any friends in the first place.
My comments still get deleted on lemmy.world. Most Lemmy instances are all-in for Five Eyes propaganda. You’d think they’d be better than corporate social media platforms, but not so much.
https://lemmy.world/c/modabuse
I think it’s a systemic issue that can’t be addressed in terms of individual mods.
Most instances are admined by Anglosphere labor aristocrats of the imperial core, who have little to no class consciousness.
They also have an underdeveloped media literacy while believing they have exemplary media literacy. Search for “media bias” and you’ll find tons of bullshit media horseshoe theory charts like the one below, which conflate enlightened centrism with factualness. Look at !world@lemmy.world which uses Media Bias/Fact Check as their North star,
which is run by a member of the Council on Foreign Relations[not the same person after all].They subscribe to the new post-Trump, “post-truth” media literacy curriculum, a curriculum that was paid for and crafted by the US military-industrial complex: New Media Literacy Standards Aim to Combat ‘Truth Decay’
Few of these people have read Inventing Reality or Manufacturing Consent. They tend to stay within the Global North corporate Overton window, not recognizing the bubble they’re in.
Not sure if post-edit CCs work, so upthread ⬆️ @brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml @zephyreks@lemmy.ml @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml @PanArab@lemmy.ml @yogthos@lemmy.ml @nekandro@lemmy.ml @carl_marks_1312@lemmy.ml
The funny thing about it is that news is no more or less truthful than it’s always been, it’s just more upfront about it. People are tribal, and they’ve been told that their tribe is flawless while the other tribe is flawed.
If you think about this for a second and apply some basic game theory, you’d realize what the natural steady state is.
I know that’s true in the US, specifically. The FCC abandoned the Fairness doctrine, and Citizens United v. FEC removed even the semblance of a barrier between the capitalist class and the political machine. Now most corporate media outlets pretty nakedly align themselves with one of the two political parties. But since both parties always ultimately answer to the capitalist class, these changes are largely cosmetic. It’s still a bunch of kayfabe in a rigged game.
we can name-and-shame. i don’ think there is a systemic fix.
@davel@lemmy.ml I agree, all we can do is highlight that this is happening, but we shouldn’t be surprised that most instances won’t be far from political mainstream in the west
Hi there! Your text contains links to other Lemmy communities, here are correct links for Lemmy users: !modabuse@lemmy.world
Removed by mod
We really are genocide deniers. We deny the CIA’s fake genocide narrative.
I’ve great news for you then, because China never started genociding the Uyghur people.
As part of the new Cold War, the US organized and funded terrorists for the purposes of destabilizing the Xinjiang region of China. And after those destabilization efforts failed, CIA cut-out NGOs like the World Uyghur Congress spun the fable of the “Uyghur genocide,” again as part of the new Cold War with China. The US wants to balkanize the country or ideally regime-change it entirely.
The blueprint of regime change operations
Sure, nothing to see here /s
Is this the part of the story where you’re reminded that forced sterilization and forced abortion has also been applied to the Han majority in support of one-child policy? No? Oh.
Indisputable reasoning
deleted by creator
Ad hominem, zero points
loud farting noise
Why is it that you say these falsehoods here in this forum but on the other social media you complain about the Chinese state and you push for democracy in China? Where are the photographs that you said you have of the Tiananmen Square massacre?
There’s video footage of tanks leaving the square and trying their hardest not to run over “tank man” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU
Also there’s a
PBS FrontlineDocumentary that, albeit having a western slant, is telling vastly different story than what gets regurgitated on Reddit and other parts of lemmyThat was the documentary I was referring to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg
Western news is about vibes and clicks, not accurate reporting.
Tank man provided a good photo, but the video that shows him getting dragged away by other protestors doesn’t tell the same story.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Let me guess, in 2002 you were calling anyone who didn’t believe Iraq had WMDs a “Saddam lover”.