Tee shirt worthy statement

I suspect the irritation over the previous annexation of Crimea and Ukraine’s increasingly pro-Western orientation would have led to a Western response even if the invasion wasn’t full scale, but it’s certainly not impossible that the West would’ve prioritized keeping things ‘calm’ over protecting Ukraine’s sovereignty in such a scenario.

Absolutely was not fine…

Also 2000-2011 was time of “I’m outside of politics” and “let serious people handle situation” propaganda. Kinda also why war happened.

Yeah. Vlad Vexler (and Perun too) talks a lot about the engineered depoliticization of the Russian people, post-truth paralysis I guess, and the “Let serious people handle it” type of thinking. Pretty alien to me in a Western country, at that scale… But at the same time feels so familiar too, because you meet people in personal life too who do awful things or let awful things happen because it’s more comfortable for them to stick their head in the sand.

Also a lot of human rights violation that was done with help of “democratic” states, like DPI systems from Israel, theater of security from US and general surveliance from around the world(mostly US, Turkey and Israel).

Nothing makes what Russia is doing to Ukraine and to Ukrainian people today okay. But at the same time, when I read of the history of the 90s and early 2000s, I get the sense that that was probably our best chance for a better world, and “we” really dropped the ball there— “We” meaning “the West”, I suppose, simply because the West was in a massive position of power at that point— Not our responsibility to fix Russia, but a missed opportunity for everyone. Doing nothing might have been a better option than accidentally propping up the Chubais Clique, shock therapy and oligarchs and undermining democracy. …Poor Albania, too (and Ukraine too, of course).

I think first thing after baning “remote digital voting” should be calling FSB criminal organization, lustrations and publishing of everything in archives without exception.

…“Remote digital voting”. Wow. I had no idea that was even a thing. It looks like there’s barely any English-speaking news about it, and not even an English Wikipedia page. Scary— Should be scary, but also utterly unsurprising on some level… Almost feels inconsequential next to everything else, tiring.

Maybe I’m just jaded by the situation in the US where they/we have (mostly) public archives and data, but people just ignore that information because it’s boring and so they latch on to politically and emotionally convenient narratives instead, but part of me thinks “publishing of everything in archives without exception” would just be ignored, or even weaponized for new types of autocratizing propaganda, especially in the looming global-cultural trust-apocalypse of LLMs— You sound politically and morally engaged and passionate, and I guess I think/have been learning it’s an easy mistake for people like that to make to imagine that if everyone had access to the same information, then surely we would mostly be in agreement, when in reality I guess a lot of people just don’t care, or have different values that they’re starting from, even if you give them access to full information— But I suppose the truth being available, even if it still ends up ignored, is still a qualitatively and transformatively morally and practically better state of being than the truth being hidden.

You sound like you’re personally familiar with this stuff. Sorry about it, I guess. Oh, and I’m curious what do you think about “Vlad Vexler Chat” channel on Youtube? What he says seems to line up and resonate with reality, causality, and empathy to my view, but I don’t actually know and can’t actually say. Would you say he’s usually on point in assessing and explaining the state of the Russian government, people, and political climate?

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That’s literally our association he is in my server. We are very close knit group and we care about him and worry for him.

I buy dolls from one of the biggest toy makers on Etsy, and I helped donate to her fund to escape eastern Ukraine when the war started.

It might not seem necessary, but details like that humanize who we are talking about and allow us to emotionally resonate with the speaker and the subject. It’s how basic human communication works.

I understood 👉 👌

Also wasnt portugal increasingly militaristic at the time? So basically Spain was in a hugbox that prevented external military action, also Morroco was a french colony at the time.

What’s left of Roscosmos and the old Soviet space program would not exist without the US propping them up.

Rogozin’s mansions won’t pay for themselves, it didn’t stop from everything in Roscosmos from being stolen.

Not entirely for altruistic reasons, mind you. Didn’t want their rocket engineers running off to other countries to make ICBMs.

Btw when Soviet Union had ICBMs, Soviet Union had ICBMs, not just Russia. Also reason why Putin invaded Ukraine. If Ukraine wasn’t forced to give up their NWs, Putin would think infinitely many times before invading. Fuck Putin, fuck United Russia.

So your premise is there was no western investment at all?

REALLY?

How fucking dumb are you? Why would there be a divest-russia movement after they invaded Ukraine if no one had business in russia? https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-1000-companies-have-curtailed-operations-russia-some-remain https://www.ips-journal.eu/topics/economy-and-ecology/a-reality-check-on-divestment-from-russia-6531/ https://www.nytimes.com/article/russia-invasion-companies.html https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-companies-sanctions-713eea2e1de70afc977e2b855212bfe7

start citing facts or I’m just going to block your ignorant ass.

The country that industrialized under Stalin at a breakneck pace, and then underwent a massive post-war building program for housing (commie-blocks, which are actually quite good for what they were meant to achieve) now can’t handle building affordable housing?

Once again, all roads lead back to Reagan.

Russians aren’t inherently violent, but the idea that shock therapy, as absurd and damaging as it was, is responsible for Russia’s current state flies in the face of the entire rest of the Warsaw Pact, which also suffered from ‘Shock Therapy’ insanity being imposed, yet have largely moved on to more functional systems than Russia.

Sad, but true.

Some say if you listen closely, you can hear them apologizing for atrocities to this day…

Germany had the world’s 3ed strongest army during the cold war, 2nd strongest right after unification. your “turned into a protectorate” statement is bullshit and basically shows that you just repeat Tanki shit-takes without understanding what you are talking about.

you literally are stuck in the mode of seeing the world through the eyes of colonial empires, the shit that caused WW1 and even WW2, and it’s no wonder, a lot of these takes come from Russian funded sources, so it literally is seeing the world through the eyes of a colonial empire!

What happened in the 90s and 2000s then? The west had been propagandized for half a century that Russia was the enemy, so had Russians, so neither side was going to hold out there hand and try for cooperation.

Both sides did, actually. The refrain in the US was always that Russians weren’t the enemy, that Communism was - we learned our lesson with our propaganda campaigns against Germany in WW1. Even Reagan, anti-Soviet agitator extraordinaire, stuck to that line. Yeltsin expressed strong interest in joining the international order - even Putin claims that he raised the issue of NATO, though he wanted special fast-track status for Russia, which was a non-starter. God, I don’t know how to express the sheer triumphalism of 90s academia on the subject. Communism was defeated. Russia was free. That was what the West told itself.

If the west was serious about incorporating Russia they would’ve done some sort of marshall plan to modernize them before bringing them into the fold like Poland.

There was no Marshall Plan for Poland. Or any of the ex-Sovs or Warsaw Pact states. The Soviet Union refused all aid when the Marshall Plan was implemented in the 40s, and there was neither the political will nor interest in the 90s in extending generous aid terms. Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, the Baltic States - they all managed to escape not only the horrendous effects of ‘Shock Therapy’, but also half a century of Soviet exploitation, if not necessarily evenly. Yet Russia, and Belarus, did not. One might then begin looking for reasons why Russia and Belarus failed to integrate, rather than reasons why the West failed to welcome, with that in mind.

They didn’t, they did let a bunch of their business men buy former public property for pennies on the dollar, which I guess is investment but only really for the corrupt officials who got rich off it.

This I agree with. ‘Shock therapy’ was nothing but a plundering of the old Soviet states by a plutocratic elite who could generously be said to have gotten high on their own supply of free market fetishism, or more cynically to simply have done what the faithless dogs would do with any weakened state - strip it bare for short term gain.

There was no path to EU membership, especially after Poland and the baltics joined because they, justifiably, hate Russia for all the imperial oppression they’ve done over the centuries.

Man, you put too much stock in old grudges. As much as I enjoy ragging on Old Worlders for their ancient blood feuds, it’s not actually that prominent in terms of diplomatic behavior. International relations are predicated almost exclusively on “What can you offer me NOW?” If they weren’t, Germany would never have snuggled up to Russia, France would currently be blockading Britain, and Spain would have cut off the New World colonies which kicked them out. In the 30s and 40s, Ukrainians and Poles were genociding each other, independent of Nazi-led initiatives - now the relation between the two countries is very warm.

History matters for context - but speaking as a History Major, it rarely matters more than present circumstances.

(Part 2 due to character limit)

Where am I wrong about Ukraine, do you think E.U. and NATO are going to let them in even after all this?

Yes, definitely. NATO expansion has long been a goal of NATO hardliners, and NATO support in NATO countries has shot up to a degree few would have expected before Russia made the dubious decision of validating the purpose of the old alliance, which had become lethargic and uncertain in recent years.

What reason is there to exclude Ukraine from NATO once the war is over? Do you think the West wants to deal with a land-grab like this bullshit again, disrupting international markets? Or do you think we’d much prefer to station a token ‘tripwire’ force in Ukraine and ensure that Russia can’t do this bullshit again in ten years?

The EU I’m less informed on the nuances of, but it seems to me they’re pretty forward about opening a path to EU membership to Ukraine. I’d be more concerned on the EU trying to stall on including them in the Schengen Area than excluding them from the EU entirely.

I’m not a tanky , the Russian invasion of Ukraine is horrific and unjustified, that doesn’t mean the west’s response to it is benevolent and with the ukrainians best interest.

I appreciate that you aren’t a tankie, or a Russian bootlicker, but sometimes national (or international) interests and the right thing line up. Western hegemony benefits most from countries deeply connected to the international market (ie Russia and Ukraine) NOT invading each other and disrupting world trade. As Russia is the aggressor, it is in the interests of the West to discourage further aggression, both practically (supporting Ukraine to end the war faster) and in principle (assuring other countries that their sovereignty will be reinforced in the case of blatant outside interference).

Which is it’s its?

EditToAdd: In which its it’s were switched.

Go back to Hexbear, bootlicker.