- cross-posted to:
- furiouslyinfuriating@sh.itjust.works
- gamedev_news@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- furiouslyinfuriating@sh.itjust.works
- gamedev_news@programming.dev
Bluesky Post (this was also posted on twitter)
I was hoping to find a statement from the aggressor, but it seems to be too early.
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I mean, it sounds like a lawsuit to me.
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A takedown request was issued on false grounds.
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This takedown was then actioned without any due process.
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The issue has caused tangible, and measurable, loss (calculable from prior sales records).
Honestly, there needs to be a fixed penalty fine for bad takedowns…
Fixed penalties just become the cost of doing business. Like actors, we need to start asking for percentage of gross.
Imo we need to start attaching criminal penalties to the people behind businesses that knowingly abuse their power and position like this. Corporate bullying isn’t a financial position, it’s a failing of ethics.
Yup. The first couple of times might have been a mistake subject to fine. The third time you’re facing criminal contempt of the rule of law.
Imagine if in America, corporations were subject to the three strike rule
Takedown requests being spammed everywhere is sort of standard, what’s crazy is that their domain holder immediately honored the request, completely ignoring how massive itch io is with millions of users…
Honestly, there needs to be a fixed penalty fine for bad takedowns…
Absolutely not, fixed fines become expected costs, and immensely favor monied actors. Make it percentage based so it hurts equally, and rich people actually have to pay a measurable amount.
Fixed fine on a sliding scale for repeat offenders
Funko would drag a lawsuit out for years, but Itch might have the spite to push through it.
They’d probably settle. It’s not worth the cost to funko either
I believe all of this is legal thanks to DMCA.
The DMCA doesn’t make false requests legal (I’m also not sure if this specific issue falls under the DMCA), but it does fail to define any meaningful penalty for making them.
Domain names arent copyrightable. This falls into trademark laws.
Maybe if they followed the dmca process
They made a false fraud report, not a DMCA takedown (which shouldn’t have taken down the entire site anyway).
Fixed minimum penalty
Hopefully this ruins Funko Fucks
Would the lawsuit be against funko or the registrar (or both) ?
Probably both if you can make the case for it. Funko for the false request, the registrar for not doing their due diligence in honoring it. Depending on the wording of the law the registrar may be off the hook however, so whether there’s a case to be brought there would be a question for their lawyers.
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Itch.io dev about this situation on Hacker News.
What HN client is this?
where is hacker news
Perfect ⭐ Thank you
What the absolute fuck? itch.io is fucking massive, how did the registar just treat them like this? goddamn!
There’s been an aggressive push against gaming recently. Check all the recent Steam news.
I haven’t seen anything like that. What steam news specifically are you referring to?
They are probably referring to this: https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/millions-examples-extremist-and-antisemitic-content-found-steam-new and this: https://www.pcgamer.com/software/platforms/steam-is-an-unsafe-place-for-teens-and-young-adults-us-senator-warns-gabe-newell-of-more-intense-scrutiny-from-the-government-if-valve-doesnt-take-action-against-extremist-content/
It’s it anti video games to point out something that is actually happening? Just because you love the company doesn’t mean that any bad news is an attack against the industry. Valve doesn’t want to moderate their forums, it was bound to happen.
I am a big GOG enjoyer myself, but when I need to use steam for anything, I have never encountered such content. Perhaps there is such content in private or otherwise not very visible spaces (such as user profiles), where they will not get reported, but that is true for any site with user content. I call BS on this being an issue.
Really? Because in my experience you have to wade through racist, homo- and transphobic, and misogynistic shit the second you foolishly open the discussions page on any game that features black or brown, LGBTQIA, and/or female characters.
Much of that is just bots and if you spend any measurable time on the internet you start to ignore stuff with variable capital letter words and emoji spam so it’s not outside of the realm of possibility that the person you’re responding to, doesn’t see that stuff. I don’t really either. My brain auto filters paragraphs of anti woke/racist rhetoric like pop-up ads.
As I said, I have never seen anything I would consider extremist myself. Though from your reply, I get the feeling the issue could be an unreasonably broad definition of extremist content on your side. That or I just happen to not visit games with such discussions.
I am a big GOG enjoyer myself, but when I need to use steam for anything, I have never encountered such content.
You’ve never seen a Pepe meme on Steam? I’m not kidding there either - if you dig into that ADL link and follow it to the research, they have a list of top extremist and hateful symbols on Steam and the swastika is number 2 at 9 percent of detected symbols. #1, representing something like 55% of extremist and hateful symbols their automated detector found on Steam was Pepe.
Perhaps there is such content in private or otherwise not very visible spaces (such as user profiles), where they will not get reported, but that is true for any site with user content. I call BS on this being an issue.
If you dig into their research, it’s mostly private user groups and profiles. Game discussion pages are moderated by their respective devs or whoever the devs appoint but user groups are moderated by their owner/appointees and user profile pages aren’t really moderated at all unless you’re doing something actually illegal in the US.
So unless you go looking at the user profile pages of white supremacists, or go searching for white supremacist user groups you won’t run into much of it.
So unless you go looking at the user profile pages of white supremacists, or go searching for white supremacist user groups you won’t run into much of it.
Yeah, that is my point. How can people be radicalized by something they don’t see?
Also, as non American, I find it mental that pepe memes are considered hate symbols now.
Pepe isn’t hate speech. It was re-co opted by the creator and I often see it in queer friendly gamer spaces. If your threshold for hate speech is a cartoon frog, you may need to recalibrate. Most people do not see it as such and do not use it as such.
All you need to do is join a Rust server and then look at some profiles.
If you only check the forums for technical questions then you’ll dodge it, if you look at the non tech sections for certain games (with diversity or ambiguous message like Hell Divers) then it’s something else.
Care to provide a link? I just skimmed Helldivers 2 discussions a bit and found nothing extremist.
Edit: The worst I found so far is this, which is pretty dumb but not really at the level of “dangerous”, or where it obviously needed to be removed.
Valve doesn’t want to moderate their forums
Devs and publishers are mods of their forums, if it’s too much for them they can add community mods or lock their forums (like some do).
And ultimately they’re still Valve’s responsibility. If you provide a platform, you’re responsible for what people do on it.
Actually this is the purpose of section 230, to remove the responsibility of the provider in terms of content. The steam discussion forums would be a form of social media and therefore steam as a whole under at least US law would not be responsible for the content that’s posted on it.
Please note that this doesn’t mean that they can’t moderate their forums, section 230 does allow the owner of the platform to dictate what they want on the forums as long as they’re acting in good faith.
In my opinion section 230 is healthy for an environment, because it’s primary purpose was to prevent an individual from being able to sue the company as a whole for Content that someone else posted, which in my opinion is fair. If someone produced libel against someone, that’s something they need to handle with the person who posted it. It doesn’t make logical sense for the person to go after the platform that held the content as they wern’t involved in that process.
This is what manufacturing consent looks like. This increasing barrage of news about a topic, most of which is based on nuggets of truth but stretched so thin you can see your hand on the other side. The idea is to make you believe something needs to be done just with the sheer volume of time spent talking about something.
The reality is that the ADL is a Zionist front that is full of shit even on their best day, and they want control over Valve the same way they have the CEOs or owners of Reddit, Meta, and even smaller players like Bumble under their thumb. You watch, they will pressure the government to act and then when the squeeze is coming, offer Valve an easy out by joining their special advisory board on tech.
So instead we should let racists, misogynists and lgbtphobes make people believe that something needs to be done to protect white men from oppression?
What are you even talking about?
Valve doesn’t want to moderate their forums, it was bound to happen.
Of course! Big government needs to save us from our 1st amendment rights. Thanks so much. I don’t think I’d have figured it out without your help.
1st amendment applies to public spaces, not a forum owned by a private company.
The 1st is there so the government doesn’t step in and create laws prohibiting speech. It’s there to stop the gov from stifling free speech. It’s not there to give you a location to use free speech.
if it’s the government that is doing the censoring, against the will of both the users and the private company, how does it not apply here then?
Seems to me it’s quite public because anyone can access their space by simply creating a free account. You’ve seemingly equated the letter of the law to the spirit.
edit: What the above poster isn’t legally understanding is quasi-public spaces. Ethically, they’re simply failing entirely.
Oh yeah those reports where they count pepe the frog as extremists content.
They’re not really all that massive, just a medium-large fish in a small pond. If this had been about Microsoft or Sony or some other brand that any random non-gamer you stop in the street will have heard of, they might have gotten special treatment from the registrar, but itch.io? Not even nearly big enough. gog wouldn’t be either. Steam might just pass the minimum threshold.
There is no way in hell that steam would have this happen, the amount of money they have behind them combined with the name alone, no registrar would dare disable their domain without being damn sure what was happening was actually happening.
Stream would seek the registar for restitution/compensation, and if you take the yearly Revenue and divide that by the hours in a year they are approaching the $1,000 an hour mark. Of course this number would be different if they actually took it to court. But due to this alone I highly doubt their domain Handler(Mark Monitor) would touch that claim with a 10-ft pole without doing some pretty intensive research
So if you’re a small pond how do you treat your medium-large fish this way of not even listening to their response?
The registrar probably treats all their customers shoddily when problems arise, and itch may not be that large a customer—do we know how many domains itch actually had with them? Probably not enough to form a significant percentage of the registrar’s income, and either that or the possibility of Rabid Attack Lawyers (which the big companies like Microsoft have on retainer) would be required to get special treatment from many companies.
I’m not saying that the registrar is in the right. They messed up, and it would serve them right to go under for this (although they probably won’t). I’m just saying that it’s unsurprising that itch was mistreated by a corporate bureaucracy.
You say it like it’s okay to do if you are not fucking massive.
Obviously that’s not what I meant. Be charitable.
Funko? That irrelevant, ugly, shitty, cheap, tacky, terrible brand from the 2010’s that lacks any relevance in 2024?
Yeah, I know 'em.
I like how people collected them as if they’d be valuable. I survived the beanie baby craze, fool me once and all that.
I see their junk at every thrift store and flea market in Ohio.
I legitimately thought they went out of business.
youtooz is working with snaller creators unlike funko which i think olny worked with m(iste)r b®east
I’ve always been more interested in youtooz than Funko Pop’s, since they do collaborate with creators I thought their products a few times. On the streamers I watch used to have an adorable dog with a hat and it came out to be a lot better quality than I thought it was going to be
I’ve always hated funkopops, they’re ugly and the very epitome of the enshitification and commercialisation of geek culture. This does nothing to change my mind
Yes and they’re yet another collectible product that exploits the psychology of a subset of people who compulsively collect things. I put them in the same category as gambling and note that there’s a lot of crossover with these things (loot boxes and CCG booster packs being prime examples of a gambling and collectible combo).
Yeah, I hate those assholes too. I feel bad for anyone who falls for their business model.
Glances at my Tyranid collection
At least you can play a game with 'Nid models. Also have you guys gotten any updated models yet? I know you guys were in the same boat as the Skaven for quite awhile.
10th gave us a ton! New Gaunts, Hormagaunts, Lictors, Deathleapers, biovores, Screamer fex, and 4 new units!!
Fucken A dude, I know the Gaunts were getting crusty. Now if only Games Workshop would update some of the non-Cadian Guard models, I want some non-forgeworld Armageddon Steel Legion models.
They did mother fucking Krieg!!
I know but I want my other gas mask boys damnit!
Yes, Inquisitor. This one right here. They have been proclaiming something about the Star Children.
At least you can actually do something with those ‘Nids.
The FOMO based businesses are preying on people with poor impulse control…which there are no shortage of in the nerd world.
My partner has an entire bookcase of them, all still in box.
Get them out and play with them!
My mom got me my first one in 2019 or 2020 because she thought it was cute (Guyfolye from Silicon Valley). A few months later she asked me if they were just Beanie Babies and I thought that was the end of it. Now every Christmas I get one even though she knows I don’t like them and we both snark on the super niche weird ones. She even got custom ones for me and my wife last year. It never ends, and I have 6 sets of beady little eyes staring at me when I’m watching TV in the basement.
I feel like you need to hear this: just because someone gifts you something doesn’t mean you need to keep it endlessly, or at all. Donate/giveaway/trash.
I know, I’ve been trying to work on it. Moving furniture and throwing away things is pretty hard for me.
A true death of art.
I remember going through the prices my buddy paid for his with actual sculptures on Etsy and him just getting more and more annoyed. He’s probably going to have a Funko themed wedding next year.
I wouldn’t say the epitome, have you heard of The Big Bang Theory?
I wouldn’t say that show commercialized geek culture. It seemed to me it was more about how geek culture should be the butt of jokes. And ASD people as well.
I’ve seen enough of it to know I don’t like it for pretty much the same reasons
If lawmakers would simply make the entity responsible for the operation of these AI powered tools be fully liable for every decision that it makes, right or wrong, this kind of nonsense would vanish overnight.
I hope the people running itch.io have great lawyers, because I would be trying to take Funko to court for punitive damages over something like this.
Also, while we’re at it, reform the DMCA to disallow automated copyright related takedown requests without some sort of human reviewing it at the other end. It’s been abused to hell and back by big business.
Also, while we’re at it, reform the DMCA to disallow automated copyright related takedown requests without some sort of human reviewing it at the other end. It’s been abused to hell and back by big business.
Itch.io shared on hackernews that they apparently sent a report for fraud and phishing, not copyright infringement. So sounds like funko was abusing the system even if automated copyright claims weren’t a thing.
If you think about it, until now there’s been an u spoken, automatic limit on all government activity because some person has to actually implement all government activity.
That’s been, through all of history, at least some kind of filter on the actions government would take.
(I’m using the term “government” ultra loosely, since in this case it’s a private entity implementing policy; “government” as in an authority who can halt a person’s operations as they see fit. “Government” in the same way management or command structure or the principal’s office is like a “government” in its little realm of operation).
Up until now, government has to be done by people. But AI makes it easy to do tons of activity, which can have a larger disruptive impact.
Fucko pop should be forced to pay damages. It’s too easy for shitty companies to send out takedown notices and too difficult for those takedown notices to be contested by comparison.
the “oh our automated system did it oopsies please forgive us” excuse doesn’t make it any better either
That was the whole point of the DMCA, though. Prevent bad publicity by claiming copyright infringement and companiea have to take down the content before they investigate any response. Any time a company doesn’t do that they are risking their own necks. So usually they only ignore it if they know for sure it’s bogus which requires that they spend the resources on a person reviewing every notice before the required time expires.
Back when I opened my comic and game shop (I no longer do comics, just games) I tried to get an account with Funko directly. They did not believe me that New Mexico is in the United States. The response was along the lines of, “if you feel that you are in the United States, we can pursue this further. But I suggest you opening an account with one of our Latin American distributors.”
I could understand that if they were an overseas company, but they are from the US. That had to be one of the most incompetent customers service reps ever.
It is not uncommon, I was almost arrested when I moved to PA because I did not have a passport, or visa, or green card to go with my NM ID that clearly says USA on it for this very reason. Our license plates also say USA on them.
Maryland also refused me a license twice saying that I needed proof I am a citizen, despite having my NM birth certificate.
I also had two other distributors tell me they do not sell to Mexico.
The president elect also has made the mistake. He said we need a border wall between Mexico and Colorado.
I always knew Americans in general were bad with global geography… but to not even know their own states? That sounds insane.
Heck, in our Dutch schools, we actually learn all the states in the United States. I definitely know New Mexico is a state. Same as Alaska and Hawaii (but not Puerto Rico, which is a territory but not a state)
How am I better at this than actual Americans? That should not be a thing.
I think people see/hear the Mexico part and they ignore the New bit. I have found that if I say NM vs New Mexico while working with a new distributor there is no confusion.
When I was in school I had to learn all 50 states and their capitals as well as be able to find them on a map.
I never get tired of Europeans being surprised at the average intelligence here, thank you for making me giggle. The average American is about as smart as a stick, and as we both know, sticks aren’t good at geography
Less than as smart as*
Wouldn’ it it be “less smart than”?
I mean sure. That one uses fewer words. If you’re a non native speaker, both are correct with the right placement in the sentence and removal of other words.
A solid percentage of Americans are dumber than shit. Ive also encountered folks who thought that California is independent from the United States and also Muslim for some fucking reason. As a born, raised, and actively living in California I can garuntee neither of those facts are true. Seriously we are at worst nationalistic not independent.
Your English is also better than people in my family whose ancestors were 18th-century British colonists.
I once had a heated argument with a coworker about where the capital of the US is located. He was of the opinion that Washington state was the capital and Washington, DC was a US city located in Colombia (he also had difficulty understanding that Colombia and Columbia were spelled differently). He wasn’t trolling; when I finally got to a map (pre-smart phone days) and showed him where DC is located, he got really mad.
Thank you, we take pride in our language education.
We learn English, French and German in school, which really helps when dealing with the rest of Europe. Whenever you meet someone from another European country, chances are you can find at least one language you both speak. Makes trade and travel a lot easier.
I do occasionally slip up when talking to Americans. We’re generally taught UK and US English here simultaneously. Which means I sometimes have the UK spelling in my head, which can differ slightly. For example, flavour vs flavor. Online, I usually try to keep it ‘US English’.
Yeah, I can absolutely see that ‘District of Columbia’ argument in my head :D You’d assume people at least know that one considering how much important stuff happens there. I’d understand if someone not from the US didn’t know. But Americans really should.
I’ve experienced the language skills of Nederlanders first hand! What I found to be most striking was hearing people having trilingual conversations especially in restaurants where the waitstaff were actively communicating individually with dozens of people in two to three languages.
I’ve tried to keep up with language skills but starting a language in high school or college just didn’t work for me. Especially since the application of those skills prioritizes written communication. I always end up with an understanding of pronunciation, some grammar, and a handful of vocabulary that I can’t actively use.
I don’t think any Americans are judging you too harshly for UK spellings. I think keeping track of all the slang and colloquialisms would be the greater challenge. I was taught “grey” and “colour” as a kid and the only problem I have is with spellcheck. 😂
Ha, the slang and colloquialisms are actually the easy part, really!
We are subjected to an awful lot of US culture in general. We watch Hollywood movies and we get most US shows, which are shown with subtitles here. We also follow US news and events, we enjoy US music, we use a lot of the same services, etc. Basically, if I moved to the US, I’d fit right in.
We tend to enjoy US culture quite a bit. We might disagree on topics like politics, healthcare, gun issues or the metric system, but by and large we’re like… Canadians.
I learned all the states at a 4th grader. Perhaps earlier even. I generally believe this is not a case of people not being taught, but a case of people not paying attention or otherwise info-dumping information they don’t think they need.
There was a point when i was in the military where I could literally write in the names of every country in the world on a blank map. It’s been years since I had to do that and I wouldn’t be able to do it now.
Well I’d certainly hope the people in the military get properly trained. You’d hate to confuse Austria and Australia or Georgia (state) and Georgia (country) if you ever needed to bomb or invade either one of them :D
It was not for the purposes of bombing. It was for the purposes of recognition of their military aircraft and weapons systems.
I had problems with TSA before because my real ID confused them and they didn’t believe it was a valid US ID. Granted, this was at a regional airport, but it’s literally the ID that complies with requirements set by Homeland Security for the specific purpose of use in airports by TSA.
Edit: and my ID isn’t even from New Mexico!
I am planning to get a passport to alleviate the issues of traveling with a NM ID.
That’s one way to do it!
Yeah, New Mexico IDs and license plates both say “New Mexico, USA” for exactly this reason. So many people have almost been illegally arrested and turned over to ICE by incompetent cops during traffic stops. Cops will pull New Mexico plates over, see the New Mexico ID, and demand to see visa paperwork because they think the person is from Mexico.
Good they are not sending people from New York back to England But you got to admit, some of the naming choices are ridiculous, what’s with all those Paris-es and Pragues.
New Mexico was actually named before Mexico was named.
https://www.ncesc.com/geographic-faq/why-is-new-mexico-called-mexico/
Wow, that’s an unexpected twist.
The customer service rep is also AI. And if it isn’t, u can bet your ass in 5 years its just going to be AI all the way down for anything support related. Literally anything to not have to pay humans for work.
The customer service rep is also AI.
I would believe this, except it was in 2019.
You oughta make a tax on that AI stuff, Camacho
Come on now, Camacho was actually a great leader. He made the smart guy an advisor, stood back, and just let him work.
I did try to kill him that one time though, but we’re cool now.
Nah, you rehabilitated him.
I feel like I’m crazy because I can’t see our own leaders doing that due to sheer hubris
That’s how Camachos are made.
This reminds of the story of some company not shipping to the Rhode Island because it’s an island not a state. Maybe someone here remembers more details
Tbf, the Commonwealth of Rhode island and Providence Plantations don’t even call themselves a state.
Did you send them a map?
AI will take our jobsAI will create more jobs because there will be dedicated staff who needs to handle the fallout when it does stupid shit
Turns out we can solve the unemployment crisis by just creating problems for ourselves! Let’s start throwing eggs at windows to get window cleaners more business.
This is surely what Reagan envisioned every Spring.
Yeah but it’s gonna be those slimy lawer-types
I’d bet these fan projects lead to more sales of their garbage products, but these corporations don’t see that because they want that licensing money now. Or they’re just spiteful and vindictive like Nintendo.
On one level, I sympathize with companies like Nintendo, I don’t want to, BUT companies are supposed to make efforts to protect their IP or they run the risk of losing those exclusive protections when it matters later on (abandonment). So if they want to continue their IP rights, they’re supposed to defend it against anything that comes along. I still don’t like it, but I kind of understand why they have to do it.
Granted, I think they could come up with some sort of licensing terms that would made it easy for solo developers to still develop small-time projects to encourage people to create these one-off labors of love, similar to what alot of TTRPG developers do, but for whatever reason, they go the hardball approach, which just creates bad feelings in the community.
https://www.themyerslg.com/blog/what-happens-if-you-dont-defend-your-ip/
I don’t want to, BUT companies are supposed to make efforts to protect their IP or they run the risk of losing those exclusive protections when it matters later on (abandonment).
My understanding is that 1.- they are not forced to defend against every possible case of trademark usage 2.- they are not obligated by law to be jerks about it and 3.- this applies to trademark only, not copyright or patents.
They have to defend their trademark. They don’t have to defend copyright, and most of Nintendo’s reputation comes from copyright claims. Someone streaming a let’s play isn’t selling a counterfeit Mario game, they’re just showing you things in a real Mario game, so there’s no trademark claim.
They’re also big abusers of the fact that most of the people they make copyright claims against can’t afford to defend themselves against such a behemoth. Even if you’re sure you’ve not violated their copyright and your lawyer’s sure, too, it’ll be much cheaper to roll over than get the legal system to agree with you.
This is crazy. How can they just take down your domain without at least discussing the issue.
Every single DMCA request should have to be filled out by hand and signed by the infringed party, not on their behalf by a third parry, under penalty of perjury. This is absolute bullshit.
The DMCA still has a lot of problems. Like if someone uploads something behind a paywall, the victim has to pay before they can even send a valid notice.
deleted by creator
It’s back up now!
At first I was like “WTF does an indie games site have to do with Funko?” then I Googled it…
Looks like they hosted a BUNCH of infringing games, so Funko, instead of doing the righteous thing and sending them a takedown request, just nuked the whole domain…
Sounds about right for funko lol.
( though tbh, listing all games that taken the funko brand would be a massive task lol ).Still, this one hell of a messy shit i wouldnt want to touch legally haha
though tbh, listing all games that taken the funko brand would be a massive task lol
That’s what the brandshield “AI” was supposed to automate. Hell, I could possibly cobble some python script to crawl through itch and create a list of infriging games/devs, something that wouldn’t take more than 1 day.
Sure, but for a lawsuit you should also validate that list to make sure there were no mistakes. Same should have happened with the ai bot. But nooooo, too many people takes scripts and ai output as facts -_-
So from what I’ve heard at least some of those are just fan pages that just link to the official site.
Huh, so I’ve always disliked funkopoops but just because I didn’t like the mass production design and they were made in China with no evidence trying not to be made with slave labor.
Now I have a new reason
