Altimont owns Carmen’s Corner Store in Hagerstown, Maryland, a community where around 20 percent of people rely on the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) to buy their groceries. But a federal agency decided that Altimont can never accept SNAP as a form of payment at Carmen’s.
That decision isn’t because Altimont has done anything wrong as a business owner, but rather because of unrelated crimes from 2004, for which he’s already served his time.
The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) permanently bans anyone with drug, alcohol, tobacco, or firearms convictions from participating in the SNAP program—a harsher punishment than the agency dishes out to those who have actually defrauded the program. That’s not just irrational, it’s also unconstitutional, which is why Altimont teamed up with our organization, the Institute for Justice (IJ), to file a federal lawsuit against the agency on Tuesday.
Seems like a natural consequence of the 13th amendment. Why would you make it easier for an escaped slave to remain free? There are literally shareholders who have a vested interest in recidivism.
Edit: In case it wasn’t clear, I find the situation monstrous. Just stating my thinking behind why it happens at all, and might be hard to change.
Imagine investing in for-profit prisons, as a regular person. You’re hoping that society tears itself apart so you can watch line go up. Monstrous indeed.
A sane society would accept that finance is inherently sociopathic to some degree and explicitly prohibit speculation, regulatory capture, and other overtly destructive practices - rather than make the fines for such things a minor cost of business. That’s without even getting into legalized slavery loopholes written into the actual constitution.
America is not a sane society.
I don’t think you even have to go that far - a sane society would ensure that you don’t create incentives at odds with the good of the society
It’s pretty basic stuff - some of our most ancient laws touch on the subject
It’s plenty sane, just not built for the success of regular people.
“Well, I’m in no way part of the problem, so I should profit from what I see as the worst of society.”
Imagine investing in for-profit prisons, as a regular person. You’re hoping that society tears itself apart so you can watch line go up. Monstrous indeed.
I have a “ethically challenged” investment set that I put money into. I hate every one of the companies, and every one of their missions. But it means when things go horribly with society, I make money… So I get to feel like a rich person, and then almost instantly feel like an asshole because I’m not making enough money to assuage the moral issues I have with it.
When the pandemic hit, I bought a bunch of food service company stock… and various pharma companies. When I found out real estate companies were gouging people’s rent… I bought real estate investment trusts… and when I found out the GOP was going to revert roe v wade, I bought a bunch of health care companies stock (that particularly service the south…)
Funny thing is, every time I get a shareholder vote notice, I always vote my conscience, but it doesn’t matter everyone else votes their pocketbook every time.
You would think that an idea to reduce recidivism and thus reduce crime, like rehabilitation over punishment, would be popular in a democratic system, it’s a real problem that it isn’t. A bunch of states are dealing with this as there’s a backlash for bail reform.
People just think punishing crime more reduces crime more and it’s not (necessarily) correct. And in a democratic system we reward what people think is true over what is true.
It’s silly because it doesn’t matter how bad the punishment is if every criminal from petty to professional thinks “I’ll never get caught”. They aren’t even considering a possibility of failure, and thus the consequences will never be a deterrent to their actions.
Once they get to prison, no amount of human rights abuses is going to magically make them into upstanding citizens. But somehow people think that if prison is a bad place nobody would want to go back. While that’s true, it’s a naive point of view from people who have never stopped to think about how someone freshly released from jail earns money or pays rent or buys necessities.
If, as a society, we truly care about reducing crime and not just punishing criminals out of a sense of twisted vengeance, we should be prioritizing rehabilitation and reform, rather than letting prisoners who could otherwise be saved languish in a system that seems to be okay with criminal gangs having total control of the social hierarchy on the inside.
They definitely consider failing. They just don’t care because crime is the most realistic option with those facing poverty or addiction. Sure DUI, and shoplifters probably think they won’t get caught but I guarantee you’ll find the best paralegals on the planet in the most dangerous cities in the US.
You can thank the Prison Industrial Complex for sponsoring the Republican “Tough on Crime” propaganda. Reactionary idiots think there’s a one step solution to all of society’s ills, and if it doesn’t work, it’s the other political party that made it fail!
Dems are fully on board with the tough on crime bullshit, even if they do stand against discriminatory punishment. They want to be tough on everyone equally.
People just think punishing crime more reduces crime more and it’s not (necessarily) correct. And in a democratic system we reward what people think is true over what is true.
This is one of those rare instances that (to them) punishment is openly the point. It doesn’t matter that there are ways to save money and increase everyone’s quality of life in the process. And it doesn’t hurt that an entire industry has grown to steal money from the state to punish these people and a small portion is put back into advertising/lobbying to make sure the cycle continues.
In addition to people somewhat naturally wanting to punish crime, A lot of people like to feel superior to others in any way they can. That way they can be internally excuse their own shortcomings.
Ex: I may be unsuccessful but at least I’m not a druggie, criminal, black, or a heathen. Too many Americans would rather hate and suppress someone in different circumstances rather than help them out.
I’m afraid a lot of people don’t even care if it’s working - they just think being “though on crime” makes society masculine and cool (and preferably white). They’d vote for it even if they knew it’s bad policy.
It’s very sad that in the US we have a justice system for protecting the rich and a revenge system for punishing everyone else.
It’s definitely not popular when prisoners are the only people we can legally treat as slaves.
It is popular in democratic systems.
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Get it?
I got my first degree in criminology and can assure you that science has known since the late 70’s that increased punishment and harsher prison environments causes more crime.
Criminals do not weigh things logically before deciding to do crime. It’s environmental and cultural.
In the US, all felony convictions come with a lifetime sentence. It’s just that the sentence usually only includes prison time at the beginning.
It’s pretty fucked up, especially considering how many victimless crimes are felonies.
many victimless crimes are felonies
What examples do you have other than drug abuse? I don’t know much about US law, but I’m pretty sure that most felonies have some kind of victim (robbery, arson, assault, etc), or at the least a potential victim (DUI, weapons charges, etc)
But I do agree that the US criminal “justice” system is horribly broken and doesn’t seem to prevent people from committing crimes again.
Not american but too much time on Reddit was quick to teach how ingenious americans are in turning misdemeanors into felonies.
The three strikes law is particularly heinous.
Prostitution comes to mind.
Graffiti is a felony.
Hell even nonviolent weapons charges. Like “having a short barreled rifle without paying $200 to the gov,” etc. If you’re not hurting people or planning to you’re alright in my book.
You many other examples do you need? Do you have any inking of how many people have been convicted of felony charges for nonviolent drug offenses alone?
Possessing a gun while being addicted.
Note, it’s not while being high. It’s while being an addict. It is a felony to pick up a gun if you’ve ever attended an AA meeting.
It is a felony to possess a gun with the wrong cosmetic feature in several states.
It is a felony to pee in public. A sex registry offense to boot.
Do you want I should go on? I could talk about actual cases of misused charges like resisting arrest. (With no other charges, so why were they being arrested?)
And then there’s the ridiculous ease with which felony convictions are had. Just hold someone long enough to threaten their job and rented house and they’ll plead to anything to not be homeless after they get out of pre-trial detention.
exactly. i can never pick up a gun in my life because of a stupid policy, after the medical industry screwed me over by hooking me on prescription meth.
How’s that now?
There are people who have the same sentence normally reserced for a child molestor because someone was peaking into their windows before the person being peaked on got pants on.
Have you tried… not committing felonies.
As an attorney that worked for Legal Aid in a past life, I offer the observation that people in poverty have an entirely different experience with the legal system than folks who are not desperately poor. A traffic ticket turns into an inescapable pile of court debt, your license gets suspended because of the debt, but you have to drive to get to work. You get caught driving on a suspended license then you miss your first court date because the notice went to an old address that you were evicted from, then you are late to your second court date because your boss wouldn’t let you out the door. Then your kid gets sick and you miss another date, but your phone is dead and you can’t call the court, and the judge throws your ass in jail for contempt. You miss work, you lose your job. You are absolutely panicking, and possibly incredibly cynical and angry to boot. Once you’ve got the system looking at you, the attention offers numerous ways to fuck you thirty times to Tuesday, in ways that reach beyond the direct action of the system.
I am not justfying crime, but I have seen enough variations of the aforementioned scenario to understand that for some, this translates into an extremely nihilistic view of a very small world where the morality of certain behavior stops being evaluated.
Again, not excusing responsibility, but just sharing what I’ve encountered - I’ve also witnessed people that seem like perfectly well adjusted folks who suddenly commit shockingly criminal acts, and seeing this transformation occur, it is clear that something just isn’t right in their head. Don’t know if it’s nature or nuture, but they’re subtly broken and there’s probably not a damn thing that can fix them. These folks are far fewer in number than folks driven by worldview shaped by desperation.
These are all just excuses that could either A. Be prevented by not committing the initial crime or B. Making damn sure you do what you are supposed to after. If you are poor, all the more reason to. Get a second job to pay for the shit, borrow money, ask a friend, sell a game. Gtfo of here with all these excuses. You observed lazy people who do the wrong shit. Period.
You libertarians are so silly. Poverty is almost impossible to escape. No amount of bootstrap-pulling will do it.
Lmao I’m a libertarian because I expect people to not commit crimes and pay their fines…? Holy fuck you people are morons.
No, it’s the whole ‘just don’t be poor’ part of what you’re saying.
Yes, take steps to not be poor. I did it and anyone else can too. The rest is just excuses.
Poverty is impossible to escape?!?! You are such a shitty enabler. Wow man. You know how you escape poverty? Staying in school, trying and working. More than 1 job sometimes when it requires it. What a load of BS.
Never had a parking ticket spiral eh?
$85 + $50 dollar waiver fee if you pay and just say you’re guilty. OOOOR
$85 fee if you go to court and lose.
Only $95 in the bank.
Well shit, $50 bucks lets you pay rent, so you take the time. But you have to get exacty $10 of gas, you get to the courtroom, do your best and lose. You gotta pay $85 dollars, and so you do – except the bank fucked you when you went to got gas, they haven’t processes that yet, and the courtroom requires a mandatory $2.95 “convenience fee” so they don’t have to take a check… So you pay, and the bank processes your payments dutifully, smallest to largest, but now you’re in the hole for $105.
Rent is still coming next week, and you’re lucky it’s only $300 cause you share a 3 bedroom and sleep on the couch.
To make the $300 dollars you gotta work 2 jobs, because Wallmart makes sure you don’t get the full 35 hours each week to qualify for benefits, and McDonalds only calls you to pick up the teenagers shifts on Fridays.
But wait, you’re -105 in the bank, so you gotta go call up a bunch of people you know and bug everyone at McDonalds to see if you can cover their shifts. Finally you manage to scrape together 55 hours to pay your rent… but you get dinged on your mobile bill in the middle of that week, and you’re out another 40 dollars. You can’t cancel the mobile phone since it’s your only phone, and hell entertainment, you can’t afford a TV or a Netflix plan, that shit’s for the rich. You can’t even afford to eat where you work…
Finally you get home, after working 7 days of 8 hour shifts you managed to scrape together (4 at wallymart and 3 at mcdonalds) and your bank account is empty, you don’t have any money for food, and your snap benefits keep getting denied because you live in a red state…
So you watch youtube shorts, and tiktok doom scroll and try and forget you’re hungry…
(I hope my landlord will let me give them 260 until I can cover the rest…)
Waaaaa. Maybe you should work another job instead of sitting on youtube doom scrolling. Or get a better paying job, or read on your own to learn skills, or go to the military. There are tons of options, you are just lazy. If you are only working 8 hours a day when you are starting off, that’s your problem right there.
You must save a lot of money on dental bills because you have your head shoved so far up your own ass you can see the back of your teeth. Get fucked.
He seems like he might be a bit of a classist dummy
I save a lot of money because I have dental insurance. Lol. Fuckface.
You really don’t know how expensive it is to be poor, do you? There’s fees on top of fees on top of fees if you can’t pay on time or the whole amount at once. The idea of “just don’t be poor” doesn’t really work. It’s like saying if you want to be a billionaire, why aren’t you? Just do it.
I was poor. I’m not poor anymore. I went to college, 9/11 happened, went to the military immediately after college, paid off my college via the military, got into IT having never went to college for the field, killed myself to learn, worked 60+ hours for 8 years to excel in the field, now I’m comfortable. I’m working on being a millionaire first ;)
Tell us more about how you don’t know the first fucking thing about what it’s like to be poor.
He said in another comment that he was poor, and then he went to college… dude doesn’t have a clue.
Im poor and went to college. Most of the people in college seem to be poor. I know very poor kids who got full scholarships. I know people deeply in debt from college.
I’m just saying one does not preclude the other.
There’s a vast difference between living on a budget and being so poor that loans aren’t enough, you didn’t finish high school because the family had to eat, and scholarships are laughable for most people.
Eating ramen to afford your on campus housing is not being poor.
Right. These people don’t know about loans. Or grants, or paying as you go. I was poor the while way thru college. One night I ate uncooked stuffing for dinner. Lol. It sucked. I lived off of the dollar store and 1 dollar bag of egg noodles, 1 dollar can of spaghetti sauce and butter and salt. Or ghetto pizza (saltines, 1 dab of spaghetti sauce per, sprinkle cheese onto, microwave)
Poverty is not a character flaw
You’re ridiculous.
Have you considered the reason I think it’s fucked up isn’t because it’s a problem for me personally? Crazy thought, right?
I was just speaking in general
If we aren’t comfortable striking a person’s offenses from public record once they’re released from prison, then clearly we did a shit job of rehabilitating them and should’ve kept them locked up for longer.
But see, that’s the thing. It’s not rehabilitation. It’s just punishment. Of course, the punishment doesn’t end after they got out of jail. We always have to make sure it continues in as many facets of life as possible because suffering is the point. Make people suffer enough and they’ll never do another bad thing ever again. It’s perfect. Don’t you know suffering churns out happy, productive, well adjusted adults?
When your incarceration system is monetized, a demand is created for prisoners.
Meaning felonies will somehow be gotten out of littering if the cop wants it bad enough
I’m generally against prison for almost all offenses. There’s no point to prison in America unless you just want to ensure someone suffers and is forever harmed by the state. Prison doesn’t rehabilitate, it makes you into a worse person from what you need to do to survive. Prison doesn’t encourage you being less of a criminal on release, it makes your life SO much harder to survive that crime is a much better option than before. Prison forces a social stigma forever through job applications and the like that ensures no one will ever forget and will treat you worse because of it. Prison and the justice system is designed to bleed money from poor people and their families so you can’t even get out with a helping hand ready. Prison quality is incredibly low and practically zero Americans care about it. Just look at all the “prison rape” jokes: Americans by-and-large want prison to be tortuous due to a bloodthirsty feeling of vengeance and powerlessness.
Prison is there only to do further harm to those desperate enough to commit serious crimes in the first place. And to increase recidivism to ensure the prison industrial complex and police “unions” keep thriving. There’s no point to sending 99% of criminals to prison but we have no alternatives besides mental hospitals which are not equipped to deal with a huge influx of violently disaffected people.
Your penal system is focussed on punishment whereas the European system is focussed on rehabilitation as prisoners at some point have to come back into society and you want them to behave.
On the other hand, US prisons are for profit so they have an incentive to make sure people stay longer and return faster so…
The US really is a fucked up place because of its economic incentives. I mean, the people aren’t the problem, policies are.
As a former two-time inmate in the Ohio DRC, I can confirm that there is ZERO I’m the way of rehabilitation. 3.5 years total incarceration with nothing to show for it.
Edit: spelling
I really believe that if prisons change how they work, educate the inmates both with scholing and behavioural therapies, help those with mental or psychological issues, help inmates once they’re out to ensure they integrate well, that the amount of inmates would drop significantly.
This is probably also the reason why this will never happen. Can’t have that market shrink.
US prisons are for profit
The US definitely has a large for-profit prison industry but it’s still a minority of prisons. About 8%, to be exact.
Of course even the prisons that aren’t private entities still use prisoner labor. I think the for profit prison isn’t the real problem with the US. Obviously it creates messed up incentives. Private prisons fund special interest groups who for example lobby against federal legalization of marijuana. They know it would reduce the number of prisoners and therefore less reason for them to exist. But in terms of influence, they aren’t the largest players.
There’s a lot of jobs in prisons, courts, law enforcement, etc. And they all depend on the massive prison industrial complex. So at this point it’s hard to decouple because those groups have a lot of influence, even though they aren’t private for-profit entities.
The cynic in my believes that the US prison system, the system that imprisons more people both in absolute terms and per capita than almost any country in history - comparable to the USSR during their peak gulag era - is meant to keep down potentially rebellious young men. These are the primary movers of revolts and dissent. Turn them into perpetual criminals so you have justification to lock them away forever.
The passives ones don’t end up in prison and are also less likely to revolt, join a radical group, etc.
1% of prisons being for profit is too many.
I agree. I think for profit companies shouldn’t be allowed in certain industries. I’d say prison, healthcare, pharmaceuticals, housing, electric, water, internet, natural gas, and perhaps public transportation and consumer banking.
Add Education there too, education Cody’s have risen to insane amounts
That’s not really true. Our penal system is focussed on profit.
Let’s say both. Publicly, the focus definitely is on punishment. Internally a lot has to do with money, yes.
“Now prisoner 24601…”
Which is exactly the point. The prison system is too profitable to risk the supply of prisoners drying up.
This is a feature, not a bug.
I have a family member who got into a physical altercation with an airport employee nearly twenty years ago over the way that employee was handling his laptop. The government will have its boot on his neck for the rest of his life, even though he went to prison (it was only like six months) and completed probation. He’s since tried to start multiple businesses, started a family, and in other ways moved on. He’s forbidden from certain parts of society similarly to the people in this article.
It’s completely ridiculous that a non-violent person could have an out-of-character outburst and be punished forever for it. But try discussing that with anyone who’s advocating for crime-and-punishment policies.
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This is why I’m anti-tough on crime.
A system without redemeption will always have crime. A system with it lets people move on beyond their flaws and accusations.
Does the world have a government or did the headline perhaps forget to mention that it’s referring to one particular country…?
My biggest problem with the justice system. Even a misdemeanor is a life sentence in this country.
“And even if you make it out of prison, join the other 10 million under state supervision” -mos def
