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“I WAS going to vote against fascism, but now you’ve FORCED me to vote for fascism!”
I had a conversation with my conservative neighbor who legitimately made this argument. He was saying that it’s the left’s fault for telling all these young conservative men that they’re Nazis, which makes those poor impressionable young men go “well if you’re going to call me a fascist then I’m going to fascist even harder just to spite you.”
It does, though. It doesn’t have to make sense to you, but it’s natural for people to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” And go with those who welcome them. Is it simplistic? Sure. But either you learn how to take on the educational and emotional burden of reaching out, or you have extra enemies.
Important caveat: telling a person their ideology is hateful isn’t “an attack,” and letting them continue to wallow in ignorance is more unkind than enlightening them.
That they feel attacked is another issue. We still have to deal with the consequences of this, and should be cognizant of it, but at the end of the day let us not lose the plot and start conflating their sensitivity with offensive language as if they weren’t two very different things.
Indeed. The raw fact of how people tend to work doesn’t make it right. It’s just that hating on them for it is ineffectual.
but it’s natural for people to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” And go with those who welcome them.
The people in my life who are wearing the red hats are essentially always the ones attacking, despite making up a tiny fraction of the people in my social sphere. The rest of us just spend every family gathering or social event hoping they won’t start spouting off this time, and offering zero of our own opinions because we know they absolutely will start spouting off if we do. They have a chilling effect on topics that anyone can discuss, compared to what we can discuss when they are not there.
So yeah, IME they are the oppressors from Trump all the way down.
My maga neighbor across the street has no idea if I’d welcome him or not, because his yard is full of hand lettered signs letting me know in no uncertain terms that anyone who votes like I do is a moron/traitor, etc. So I just pretend he doesn’t exist, and hope he and his (continuous stream of) visiting buddies don’t blow up the neighborhood or get careless with their guns one day.
The one and only sign he does have in spanish is the one letting everyone know he’s got a surveillance system though. That’s probably not racist though…
Totally get that. I’m not at saying they’re not going to socially attack you. I’m just saying that ridicule in return is ineffectual.
But so is being overly soft.
And yes magas, everyone you know who isn’t one of you is doing this. All your friends, coworkers, and relatives who don’t actively call you out are just silently praying that you don’t open your bigoted, racist mouth whenever you are all together.
This is true, but it’s also incredibly dumb. Like teens that choose to hang out with local drug gangs and throw their future away. You can see why it happens, but it’s so wasteful and stupid, and always ends in misery.
What we are ultimately talking about is the depth of stupidity that people are capable of.
Before the flathearthers, Tea Party, Q-anon and the MAGA movements, we simply did not account for just how fucking dumb the average person can be under bad circumstances.
This is the essence of Trump’s rise to power. His political advisors called this “an opportunity” and tripled down on it. They believed that a bad-faith movement could build a coalition of the mentally unstable, susceptible morons, cultish religion indoctrinated, under-educated and socially fringed. Easily swept up with Nazi-style messaging and politics.
The solution: At an individual level, if you know someone you seek to save, work to expose them to real information by being a positive and understanding presence in their lives, and slowly showing them the way out of the prison of stupidity inside their own heads.
At a global level, we must exact hard costs on their movement as a whole and each participant as people. We must make it highly expensive and damaging to support fascism. They are already paying the price of being marginalized socially, but costs need to be much higher.
This cost is the reason Trump has not been able to inspire his moron minions to violence in the last couple years. They see that MAGA minions get imprisoned, their lives ruined, and possibly shot in the head, and they simply don’t turn up for Trump’s calls to violence anymore. The public cost of participation in fascism works as a deterrent, so we need to crank up the costs significantly higher.
If they think they are going to double down on fascism because you called them out, then you must triple down on exacting a price for their bullshit. At some point they’ll realize it’s not worth it. Just like all these MAGA men on dating apps now pretending to be apolitical because they can’t get any women to take them seriously. Suddenly, the pride in their shitty convictions is out the window when they realize they won’t be allowed to participate in society. Keep making them pay the price of choosing poorly. The harder you hit them, the faster you help them do some much needed introspection.
The irony is when you see people who are so capable, in some senses, of intelligent discourse on the matter, but still can’t see through the issue well enough to reach others in a similar situation, but settled in a different set of ideas. In the end, we don’t like it, it’s up to us to resolve those emotions. It may not be easy, but it works - whereas anything else defers the issue.
Yeah, I know when I’m just hanging out and meet a bunch of nazis talking about how jews and blacks need to be exterminated, I feel welcomed and understood.
They were racist before, they’re comfortable because they finally get to take off their masks, or hoods in this case.
It’s natural for you to say “who welcomes me? Who attacks me?” and go with those who welcome you.
That doesn’t make it effective at making the overall situation better.
Which is how Hitler recruited the brownshirts.
You’d think people would learn this pattern as it’s repeated constantly through history, but alas.
Yep. And it is easily rationalized as doing the right thing, until its too late to do differently.
“And in a way, that makes YOU the fascist!”
Continues becoming even more fascist
“I used to hold very strong leftist values and principles up until someone on the internet hurt my feelings.”
#walkaway
Why did Rage Against the Machine have to get so political? Why couldn’t they just stick to their music?
Back in the 90s I remember “Killing in the name of” was about kicking ass and not taking any shit from nobody. Listened to it a few weeks ago and it’s all woke now smdh.
Rolling down rodeo was such an amazing riff, I used to love it before they went back and changed the lyrics.
To be fair, when I was a teen that really was how I thought. The real meaning wasn’t noticed until I started seeing the costs of politics and actually caring about what was going on. So if it helps, just think of the people claiming this as still being very very
stupidignorant of the politics of the real world.
I’ve learned recently that the skinhead movement used to be antiracist and leftist af. Until nazis infiltrated the skinhead punk scene.
Nazis have a rich history of stealing symbols and coopting movements. They’re like hateful little magpies who steal any shiny bits of culture they find and take them back to their nests to shit all over them.
For an example see the symbol of peace that was the swastika more than 100 years ago
They reversed the direction. The original symbol is still used in Asia
I went to a Viking festival and had a great time, but I wonder about how often they have to look askance at the people who are really into runes and Thor hammer symbols.
It still is where people don’t get triggered just by looking at it.
Yeah, and they forever ruined
this look
with that
wtf is going on with Hitler’s right nostril in that photo? Is he wearing a stillsuit?
I just cropped him out of some random internet image. I luckily wasn’t there by a few decades.
Most people have differently sized nostrils. It’s an interesting physical difference, and there are a few different ideas for why. One is the nasal cycle, and your body simply has a preference for one side, another that you’ll hear is (and this is constantly parroted in the EMS world and easily dismissed by the logic that your nose is quite far from the carina where the primary bronchi merge) that your lungs are slightly different due to the heart sitting partially to the left of your chest (for most people), making your right lung bigger and thus blows harder through the right nostril.
Antiracist and leftist is kind of an exaggeration; rather an apolitical subculture of the British working class up until the late 70s/early 80s when the National Front infiltrated the scene. This was during the second wave of the skinhead movement, the original skinheads in the 60s were influenced by West Indian immigrants to the UK, and listened mainly to ska and jamaican music, but generally not very politically conscious or involved. Kind of a rougher offshoot of the mod subculture.
The second wave of skinheads came out of the punk movement. A lot of skins were into Oi!/streetpunk and the NF made their own version which was then called RAC (Rock against communism) but is better known these days (at least in Europe) as White Power Music.
I’m not saying there weren’t leftist skinheads (Redskins and Angelic Upstarts would be a good place to start) but as a subculture, the common theme is rather working class identity and pride - which unfortunately, as we’ve seen, can be exploited by fascist movements as well.
Nazis ruin everything. And we let them.
Nazi punks, FUCK OFF!
Not generally, but:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinheads_Against_Racial_Prejudice
They get angry because even when they try to mask their racism it still clearly shows.
Happy Cakeday! 🍰🎂
While this does get pushed it’s important to realize they’re pushing it to take in people who feel rejected by liberals and leftists. That’s why when there’s a question that appears honest it’s important to treat it in good faith before assuming they’re a conservative troll.
There are people who spend their entire childhood hearing garbage like “black people are more disposed to criminality, because 50% of the prison population is black but only 20% of society is Black.” And they just haven’t ever been exposed to concepts like over policing. When you just react aggressively right away it can actually push them back into that ideology and then it’s really more a matter of the people around them. Humans need community. If political or religious truths are required for membership then they will adopt them.
And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state. This is why diversity in school, the workplace, church, and wherever people congregate is so damn important. We need to see that we aren’t devils, that we all want the same thing. (A peaceful existence with enough distractions and the ability to provide for our family)
That’s also why extremist ideologues are so hell bent on isolating people. Home schooling, as many church events as possible, sun down towns, church approved summer camp, members only clubs, intolerance of tolerance, etc.
Agreed, although I think that “home schooling” should be bolded and italicized.
Hey, I was homeschooled and turned out okay! …My mom also has a bachelor of science and is, in general, a woman of science, though…so…maybe a little different for my case.
There isn’t just the education aspect. There’s also the social aspect.
Yeah, like half of that list is fine if you aren’t using to specifically cut people off from the rest of society. But that’s the entirety of why they push it.
You are the exception to the rule.
Nifty! Honestly, I knew a lot of other homeschool kids whose parents were not so exceptional… we had some luddites and “noschoolers.” I wonder how they turned out. 🤔
And yes these same rules apply to someone who grew up hearing the US is an imperialist bully state.
I didn’t grow up hearing that, but I mean…
I see your point, and I hope I succeed in assuming people are interacting in good faith until shown otherwise most of the time, but at a certain point people also need to be responsible for questioning the narratives they have always accepted without having to be stroked and petted into doing so. (They are both the “party of personal responsibility” and also the “fuck your feelings” party, after all.)
I grew up surrounded by rah rah USA#1 jingoism and a continuous dose of cold war propaganda in almost every bit of media I consumed. (It was the 70s/80s after all) And now I know that the US is an imperialist bully state with a lot of things in its past that folks like to try wishing out of existence rather than willingly examining.
I didn’t change a bunch of my opinions because the people I used to disagree with about many (not all) of these and related topics were nice to me about it. The things that have changed have changed because I was willing to consider new information.
Oh there’s definitely a difference between being nice and straight up rejecting someone. You can be firm while not sending them on their way. I think the important skill we all need to learn and practice is de-escalation. It’s really easy to get into this mode of defending yourself when that was never the point.
I think the important skill we all need to learn and practice is de-escalation.
I generally agree with you about this, which is probably good enough for this discussion. 🙂
Here people often self report with “I’m not racist…but”
Proceeds to spout incredibly offensive and uneducated xenophobic take revealing they’ve never had a personal relationship with a person of color or other marginalized group
Poor conservatives. Always getting picked on by all those mean normies.
Always be projecting. It’s the only thing they know.
Even South Park touched on that sentiment. Like, how is calling everything racist eventually make one racist? That’s the most asinine excuse I’ve heard to be racist!
“I wasn’t racist until someone called me racist!”
No, you are already are a racist, you’re just making up excuses to finally show the real you.
Twisting their arms to be what they really are.
In a different context: EDIT: And not Related to the main point of the post.
The nazis did have cool uniforms and i think there is something super woke and punk about wearing a version of one where all the symbols are defiled or replaced.
There is a certain something in denying fascist the power to claim an outfit or even such ancient symbol, and liberating fashion. But especially symbolism is easily misunderstood. You need very obvious irony or anti symbolism to pull it off.
I think making marginalised people around you not have to get close enough to check out your emblems before they get the fuck out of your vicinity is orders of magnitude more important than “reclaiming” “cool” uniforms that were never yours to claim in the first place unless you’re a Nazi yourself, and aren’t really cool at all unless you’re in to authoritarianism (and if that’s your kink, whatever, but you don’t get to inflict fear on to non consenting participants with it).
There are plenty of other uniform like cloths for you to wear, deliberately making yourself look like a Nazi isn’t doing positive shit for anyone.
I am not saying i want to don a nazi cosplay, and i did express that in reality this is complicated.
Its more the principle of “i cannot do this” even if i have non offensive intentions, because if i do people will associate it with the bad intentions.
To me this leaves a dirty feeling of them having a super minor grip over creative choices.
Admittedly a lot of this is coming from a core memory of mine where a very young and innocent artistic child had to come to terms that i am not allowed to draw the momentum of windmills.
I love geometry a lot more then i like uniforms, but the same philosophical pattern applies.
That’s a lot of words to say you care more about “aesthetic” than you do about the people around you feeling safe.
I do not.
A vast misinterpretation on your terms. I am sorry to say.
I can asure you my genuine outfit is as neutral and boring as it gets. Neither did i obtain a career where i can make geometric art for public display.
If you read my words a bit better you may realize i am expressing the concept and a power struggle, rather then actual action.
From my point of view you are, without intending to do so ,empowering and legitimizing a oppressive ideology.
A lot of words for nazi fetish.
You appear very butthurt that I suggest defiling nazi symbolism and appropriating the tools they are using to express their ideology.
At this point people who claim to not understand what i said are unwilling to actually read or no longer acting in good faith.
If that is not the case then please reflect that as a antifascist i have no reason to start a fight with you.
Leftist fighting only serves the right.
That essay shows your the butt hurt one. You wanna “take back nazi symbolism” is just an excuse to play contrarian. This is a childish thought not really well thought out.
Idk, I liked the Black Panther uniforms better.
wrong place bub.
I’m all for reclaiming the toothbrush mustache but this has nothing to do with this thread.
That is incorrect. The SS uniform mentioned in the third panel means their comment has something to do with this thread. It may not be the main point, but it is something.
Just buy a Hugo Boss suit circa 1930s. That’s who designed the nazi uniforms.
That’s actually a very cool idea.
Do a proper SS leather jacket but with a defiled swastika all over the back (so no one can mistake it) and reclaim it?
I’d probably not use the red band.
And would this become problematic in a decade when the jackets get normalised and mainstream (probably without the punk defiling)?
It’s been done before
I saw a guy wearing an SS uniform but the armband was a rainbow and the SS insignias were all 2 dildos arranged in a 69 pattern once. Probably some more details but that’s what I remember after all these years
This was at a gay pride parade before it was federally legalized here and if I recall right he said it was a joke on how many people thought he gay agenda was coming for them
Dude looked good
Some things are forever ruined and that uniform and the swastika are sadly among them, at least in the West.
Harry Du Bois dealing with a huge, union dock worker in his path
I need to finish my racist asshole cop run.
What happened. I’m drunk.
Pygmalian Effect?
Proud boys donning Fred Perry’s like they’re actual skinheads pisses me off to no end. They got no idea what skinhead culture was all about.
