Archived copy is here: https://archive.is/DqZ6m
The article says this:
“Immediately withdraw from NATO’s integrated command and then, in stages, from the organization itself. Reject the tribute demanded by the United States of 5% of GDP devoted to defense spending,” read France Unbowed’s 222-page program.
However, France under Mélenchon would still provide assistance to European Union countries under EU treaties, the document added
Is Melenchon right? Is it better for the EU to be the organisation of mutual defence guarantees for Europe, rather than NATO?
Putin really doesn’t care if the far left or the far right wins power in France. They are the same picture to him.
I’m surprised to see so much Atlantist sentiment on Lemmy.
The US has proved not only that their security umbrella means nothing, but that it in fact invites foreign aggression. And once you’re attacked they’ll probably shit on you and go back on all their commitments. What’s the point exactly?
Most of the NATO members are not the US, also in terms of population. If you propose leaving NATO without a realistic alternative of a kind of NATO without the US for example all you are doing is selling out Europe.
I’d like to think of myself as pretty far on the left - but this dude is a straight up tankie.
No. We need to move towards globalism not back to tribalism.
NATO is tribalism
I think you need to go and look up what NATO actually is because you clearly have no idea.
sadly, you’re not gonna convince many people on lemmy that “this implementation isn’t perfect, so therefore the entire idea is bad from first principles” is a stupid and misanthropic worldview.
Is Melenchon right? Is it better for the EU to be the organisation of mutual defence guarantees for Europe, rather than NATO?
That’s not what Mélenchon is advocating. The platform chapter on this topic doesn’t propose replacing NATO with the EU. The policy described in that chapter is reactionary, not progressive. Mélenchon is old and hasn’t really let go of the past. In many ways he’s the French version of Jeremy Corbyn.
Indeed. He is almost as much anti-EU as he is anti-NATO, even if I don’t know if he stops form demanding leaving the EU as well, or not. He stands for a left nationalist ideology that just makes sure Europe is an easy prey.
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leaving NATO is probably a good idea, the US has displayed how unserious it is and can no longer be trusted BUT a better EU solution aligned with Canada etal should be in place first.
but the Ukraine stance is beyond understanding, if France was invaded would they want help from others ? there is no diplomatic solution to a bully, if he takes your lunch money and insists on more, sure ask him to stop but that won’t work and he will need a punch in the nose.
Why he have to be a tankie, I’m very left wing and a pacifist but that doesn’t mean don’t defend yourself, quite the opposite and boots on the ground is the only solution to show Europe is serious about it’s own safety, EU troops along the Belarusian border to free up Ukrainian troopps and show solidarity.
That alternative can be… NATO. If the US flakes out and doesn’t support a conflict like an invasion from Russia, the remaining countries can handle it under the existing structure. That also leaves it in place if the US straightens their shit out
42.7 already exists
The Ukraine bombing and torturing its own citizens doesn’t sit well with those of us that aren’t right wingers. We generally feel torturing and killing civilians is bad.
Uh hi, it’s Russia that is bombing Ukraine.
You even use the imperialist term “The Ukraine” That Russia wants you to use.
And in what universe is your beloved Russia anything but right wing? It’s an oligarchy worse than the US.
I didn’t mention Russia. Definitely not worse than the US, though. The US is by far the worst of settlers. Hell, all of Russia’s allies are leftists. The red scare has been mighty effective.
You don’t have to mention them for it to be obvious who you’re worshipping.
Worshipping? That’s a little extreme. I’d like the violence to end. The west’s support for the Ukrainian Nazi’s should make it pretty clear for everyone. Liberals aren’t even pretending to be leftish anymore.
Ukraine was a pawn, NATO knew russia would invade, they signed a border treaty in 2003 because russia does not want american military bases on it’s border.
Thank god for academics like jeffrey sachs, he wrote on this…:https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/nato-chief-admits-expansion-behind-russian-invasion
Zelensky was dumb enough to break the treaty and believe that NATO would commit to their cause, instead russia simply honored the treaty by dissolving ukraine’s border…
Yes, Zelenskyy broke the treaty by invading Crimea in 2014 when he was still a comedian 🤡
Political battles and wars do not start this abruptly, thinking that anyone on the world stage would tolerate Putin waking up and taking over Crimea on a whim is either a misconception on your end or misplaced sarcasm. Crimea was invaded by russia due to the impeachement of the Viktor Yanukovych, which was illegal and overwhelmingly proven to be linked to US action. Furthermore, Russia had a naval base on the black sea that would have been reclaimed by the united states if the support of ukraine shifted to Nato following the impeachment of Yanukovych. It was a strategic necessity and a means of incentivizing ukraine to reconnect with Russia as an ally rather than attempt to side with NATO.
Russia had retreated back into it’s borders in 2014 and just like with Finland and Austria, it respected surrounding nations borders as long as they did not engage in Nato expansionism.But to add one last point, Europeans are insane to the rest of the world when they think it rational to prefer the united states to Russia… Who between Russia and the US participated in 70+ assassination attempts of foreign politicians, undermined global peace and countries’ senses of agency and ruined Serbia, Afghanistan, Georgia, Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Venezuela? The last thing Russia needs is a regime change…
As far as ukrainian journalists spoke of it, was politically motivated since Yanukovych was on good terms with Putin and part of the senate wanted to westernize if they had US backing to engage martially with Russia. Instead the US gave a solid year of military support and cut it s costs when came the time.
if France was invaded would they want help from others ?
France is militarily the most powerful country in Western Europe. If they’re getting attacked, none of their neighbours’ help will amount to much.
I don’t know why you were downvoted, this is right. France doesn’t have a “no first strike” policy. If we are attacked we will take down the ennemies with us anyway
The downvoting was for the shortsighted self centric perspective. Yes, France can take down the other side, but is that a preferable outcome to rather staying together in Europe and preventing that scenario to begin with in the first place?
Lemmy summarise:
- The far right wants to “normalise” relations with Russia and weaken cooperation within, if not leave the EU, thus emboldening Russian aggression.
- The far left wants to abandon any meaningful deterrence and leave NATO, thus emboldening Russian aggression.
Could it be that both get their talking points from the same source, along with their funding…?
Russia doesn’t really care for their ideologies, the only important thing for Russia is that these parties weaken their home nations and destroy European cooperation. Those two things are crucial for them to be able to dominate Europe, as they stand no chance against a united Europe.
So far left, they have come a full circle are kissing thr far right
Uhm, probably. Both lepen and the far left dude are known to have Russian money connections.
The far left dude has Russian ideological connections too.
Say you are bought by Putin without saying you are bought by Putin
Say you have never heard Mélenchon talk about Russia without saying you never heard Mélenchon talk about Russia
maskirovka
Russia doesn’t care if Mélenchon talks badly about Russia. It is enough that France is destablised, NATO is weakened or destroyed and that European cooperation damaged or better yet destroyed as well. Le Pen and Mélenchon are almost the same to him. Same with right populist parties like PiS that talk badly about Russia while also doing mostly what Putin wants them to do.
This is suicidal considering he is not the favorite in the polls.
it does insist on the need for a diplomatic solution [in Ukraine]
The far-right has the same idea to drop our pants in front of Putin. We are fucked whoever wins I guess.
Absolutely, Russia needs to be kicked out of Ukraine, and we should do what we can to help them. You can interpret that about as far as it can go. Including EU/NATO military presence in Ukraine. We should be there to help them protect their electricity, and with logistics and for medical assistance, but Europe is a bunch at cowards, all talk and not doing the walk.
Oh yeah, Putin would absolutely love that, so either the guy is intellectually deficient, or he’s paid by Putin. Probably both
Or he wants ordinary people to have food, and schools to have teachers and basic facilities.
None of this is negatively impacted by being a NATO member.
That can be easily arranged by reducing the size of the retirement class, the biggest financial drain of most societies. Tax wealth and raise the retirement age.
Yeah, the far left (along with the far right) is fully in line with its headquarters in Beijing and Moscow …
Tankies be tankin’
Tankies seriously considering war with Russia and China are not tankies
In 10 years? Maybe. Next year? No. NATO is not just US bombs, but logistics, training, communication, theoretical strategy, standards, infrastructure all the boring stuff that makes the collaboration of nations work. The EU can set up something like that, but it takes more time as we basically outsourced it to the US for 80 years.
Leaving and rebuilding would not be cheaper and running an Organisation im parallel would create more friction. Better to take over NATO from inside or turn it into a new Organisation with less us oversight (and funding)
Plus, Canada is in the NATO, not just the US.
Edit: it will also do nothing to fix cost of living and education in France. On the contrary, it will siphon money into the military in France
The goal is to weaken MATI for Putin. That’s all.
