On the day of the killings, Veltman denied that he went out on the day with the intention of conducting murders despite the fact he had written a manifesto, put on a military helmet, a bulletproof vest, and a white shirt with a cross on it that was a reference to an online meme about crusaders killing Muslims.
Dude is just trying to save his skin and pass the blame for what he did elsewhere.
You’re right, but the blame does lie with multiple people too. Yeah, his only chance of saving his skin is if other’s responsibility somehow diminishes his own culpability, but he will soon find out this is not a zero-sum game.
But shouting “fire!” In a crowded theater isn’t free speech and will get you a jail sentence if it creates a disaster. Infowars (and Alex Jones specifically), and other organisations (they identify libertarian and mainstream conservative content plus youtube algorithm) also need to be held to account for inflammatory speech that encourages violence; provided that it can be demonstrated that they’re pushing dangerous misinformation. Especially if they are making money doing it.
I won’t hold my breath waiting to see that happen though.
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But falsely shouting “fire!” In a crowded theater isn’t free speech if it creates a disaster and/or summons emergency services in various US jurisdictions
FTFYFMFY
My point was more around the idea that you are/can be held responsible for the things you say rather than exact implementation requirements though.
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Does shouting “Fire!” In a crowded place cause people to panic and stampede?
People who legitimately have a disability that affects their cognition are at increased risk of being abused and scammed. They are also more likely to not be able to afford help, especially when they need it most. Exploiting people’s disabilities for personal gain is not only unethical, but arguably already illegal financial exploitation.
If a person provides a steady supply of lies and manipulation with the intention of stirring up xenophobic outrage to fill their wallet, then… yes. They do hold some responsibility for the foreseeable risk that promoting outrage inspires outrage. At best, the liar believe their own lies, in which case they still need to show their math when claiming very specific things like “crime by Muslims is being systemically under-reported”. That’s not just an opinion like “i don’t trust Muslims” anymore, it’s a quantifiable and verifiable or falsifiable claim. There are multiple laws around fraud, libel, etc. that deal with these sorts of arguments daily.
Just like we condemn phone scammers for preying on grandparents with dementia, it is very much not ok to steal from people who are ill and need real genuine help.
You’ll want to read the “legacy” section of that Wikipedia page.
The part where they would need to prove “imminent” danger (without it being defined) and the Supreme Court overturned its previous decisions in making that ruling? Sure, it’s not a clear cut crime and would need to be its own case. That’s also why I originally qualified it with “if it creates a disaster”. I’m not suggesting immediate conviction without trial(s).
I also think the media landscape is very different from 1969 when that ruling was made, and I disagree that calling for “revenge” against non-white people on the day of a specific rally is “abstract” like the ruling said, but that’s a topic for a different day.
The part where they would need to prove “imminent” danger (without it being defined)
It’s been defined in case-law.
If a person provides a steady supply of lies and manipulation with the intention of stirring up xenophobic outrage to fill their wallet
From what I can tell this typically falls under political speech and is very much protected unless there is fraud or some other crime involved.
It’s been defined in case-law.
It has been at least temporarily narrowed in scope by US courts, which I wouldn’t quite consider to be the same as defined - given we’re getting into the unnecessary details here. I’m not even convinced the US Supreme Court is always the best choice for ethical decision-making, let alone if the first amendment prevents all culpability for foreseeable risks.
I’m also not the Supreme Court, or a lawyer. Hell, I’m not even American, and neither were the victims or the defendant. In my opinion, Jones is responsible and in my opinion, there is enough ambiguity in the law for Jones’ actions to be debated in courts in legal systems across the world where his audience lives.
From what I can tell this typically falls under political speech and is very much protected unless there is fraud or some other crime involved.
In the US, from a 1st amendment standpoint, probably, yes. This is why I also mentioned libel, financial extortion and fraud though as possible crimes. Culpability / responsibility doesn’t even need to be criminal or a violation of any jurisdiction’s free speech laws though, even if it has better odds of preventing future bullshit. Infowars may not only have obligations under the jurisdiction of their local courts.
tl;dr shit is too complicated for social media posts written on my phone to convey with 100% accuracy for every audience member’s context. I did not intend to suggest that my opinion of responsibility matches the US Supreme Court’s in full or that the phrase “shouting fire in a crowded theatre” implies the US court system has jurisdiction over the entire concept of free speech and responsibility or a murder case in Canadian court. I apologise for not making that clearer up front. The point was around cases where speech can create clear and foreseeable risks.
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The same way we know who is going to commit what crime now. There are no guaranteed signs, just clues and maybe even historical patterns of behaviour. So ultimately, you don’t and can’t know for certain.
But you do assume a portion of the population (currently estimated at 15-20%) may have medical problems that affect their daily life and provide enough accessible public welfare systems that try to help people experiencing those problems, and you also foster a culture where getting help isn’t a declaration that you’re broken or weak. You also keep an eye out for your friends and family who might have been behaving unusually or… you know, radicalising. Normal collaborative society stuff.
None of us know when we might experience illness of any variety, including ones that affect our brains. Biology and chemistry often do weird shit, organic creatures have significant construction variation.
Society and community is a large part of how humans have prevented unexpected problems from killing humans unnecessarily. It is also how we should be preventing people from exploiting others.
It’s called stochastic terrorism.
Fault isn’t binary.
Is a con-man really at fault if he is able to trick people into giving him money?
He didn’t intend to do any murdering, he just was fully prepared just in case the opportunity for some murdering came up. You know how one might pack a few snacks just in case they get peckish between meals.
Ah the Rittenhouse defense
denied that he went out on the day with the intention of conducting murders
What did he expect, that they would respawn?
I’m pretty sure you can’t claim a crime of passion if you put on a bulletproof vest, it’s not exactly normal attire even for NRA idiots.
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He said that he consumed conspiratorial content like Alex Jones’ Infowars where he found “conspiracies that Middle Eastern wars were a conspiracy to try to bring Muslim immigration into Europe.” This then led him to white nationalist content.
I’m not surprised he said that. Alex Jones is a stepping stone toward radicalization but I consider it a distinction without a difference. Alex Jones has been a white nationalist his entire career despite his shallow denials and subterfuge. The ‘Knowledge Fight’ podcast has done an excellent job of documenting the fact that Alex Jones has never been a “harmless crank” by examining and debunking his own contemporary claims and those going back to the earliest days of his career. The only difference between Alex Jones and blatant white nationalist content is his conscious use of dog whistles. But even those have mostly been abandoned now that he’s seemingly drunk every time he records a show.
It’s funny because at the beginning of that show Dan does think Alex is just some kind of a grandstanding/ridiculous pill, gold and water filter huckster. He was listening and watching ironically, largely for cheap laughs, and as kind of a game to peel back the layers of the “turn the frogs gay” onion.
It took a decent amount of time for them to get a handle on how awful he truly was, but more importantly, the intent. When you look at it through the lens of the current episodes you can see that the beliefs were always there but that there was way more effort to maintain the mask and disguise the true sources. Pretty much like you said.
Part of what makes the show interesting, in hindsight, is how long he was given the benefit of the doubt. And I say that as more of a testament to who Dan and Jordan are and the difference of the times from then and now. His fascination morphs into disgust and the novelty becomes more of an accidental chronicle of right white radicalization. I wonder who Alex will say was really behind this.
I’ve listened to episodes here and there, but your explanation about how Dan changed over time is interesting.
A few questions :
When did Dan start to realize this wasn’t a joke (~ how long after the show started), and was it just Alex being Alex or was there a major moment where it finally hit him?
After the show started, how long did it take them to get caught up to current broadcasts? When did the podcast and Alex “sync up”? Did his hardcore alt right turn begin around the 2016 election? I know he was spouting all the racist fear mongering things during Obama’s term.
Thanks! I love the concept of the show, but I cannot take that much Alex at one time. They’re doing good work though.
Too long of an answer:
So that is hard for me to pinpoint, just because there’s close to 900 episodes now and I think I started listening in like 2019ish? The show started in 2017 and I remember after I listened for a few weeks I decided to start from the beginning and was surprised by how different the feeling of their approach was. I would say by 2019 they we’re much less willing to write off gross stuff and were more concerned with Alex providing cover for extremist patriot guests. Post election and J6 they are pretty on the nose about calling out what they perceive as Alex’s more deep seeded motives. With the final form of just general disgust and every info wars episode being a new low probably arising around the 2022 sandy hook defamation trial in Texas. Maybe a little before that. I’d say that the change in perception very much follows the arch and evolution of not only Alex, but much of the country letting the mask slip. So yeah, I’d say it’s gradual.
As I recall the show was always a mixture of both current info wars episodes and past ones that Dan found interesting or silly. Sometimes what they covered would be dictated by how interesting (or not) the current info wars episodes were and then over the last maybe 2 years they would go to older episodes when Alex was in “time out.” Which is basically when hes on such a horrible rip of racist, xenophobic, homophobic, incendiary garbage that Dan doesn’t want to listen or give it air on their show. More recently though they cover that stuff when it comes out. So I’d say he’s put mental health aside and feels more of a need to document some of these things to the audience. It’s really horrible stuff and you can see pieces of the through line that led this guys mental state and the murders.
Alex’s shtick of being “beyond the left right paradigm” and masquerading around as some libertarian with secret truths probably mostly ended around 2019-2020 where he got increasingly dependent upon drawing in more audience solely do to his support of Trump. He also has Stuart Rhodes, Roger Stone and Michael Flynn on a bunch in that time frame. So tying those worlds together was very lucrative for him with the level of access he was getting to people Trump was pardoning and putting reliance on. I think that’s the best way to look at his increasing influence and role from 2016 on. It always mirrors where the right is going because he wants a cut of the cultist grift and then will amplify deceptions to create new market space and solidify his position as someone with secret knowledge. This ebb and flow cycle creates a feedback loop and this guy who is just making up shit to sell garbage supplements is eventually selling insurrection. Recently it shows itself even more clearly. Alex goes on 5 minute tantrums saying REAL gross stuff, and it’s just him trying to get a racist or homophobic clip to go viral out of desperation for money.
Go listen to the Project Camelot episodes about space raptors if you want some more zany fun stuff. It’s also absolutely worth listening to their episodes covering the Sandy Hook cases (especially the ones called formulaic objections) and the debriefs they do with Mark Bankston (who is the prosecuting attorney and a listener.) It gives excellent perspective to hear Alex in front of a court and how he turns on and off without control.
This is a fantastic answer. Thanks!
And is Mark Bankston the guy who told Alex that his lawyers fucked up and sent over all this extra stuff from his phone that they didn’t mean to?
I was watching that live! It was so great! His face! LOL….fucking legend.
Yeah I’m definitely saving those to listen to!
Yes. That was Mark Bankston.
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It just hit Dan that what Alex is doing isn’t funny but dangerous. It was episode 174 where Dan has his realization that Alex has always been super racist and how that affects the things Alex says and does.
When the show started they covered current broadcasts. Soon after they started doing regular time travel episodes where they would put Alex in ‘time out’ and cover a past episode. Episode 174 is one of those episodes. It’s the juxtaposition between the two times that put it all in focus for Dan. If you are looking for best episodes to go back and listen to, 174 is near the top and really addresses your questions.
The fact that you know this down to the episode is amazing. You sir are a true wonk.
Thank you!! I’m saving it now for the drive to/from work tomorrow :)
Oh wow, that last part about wars in the middle east being a conspiracy is totally new to me. I suppose it’s no less unbelievable than the planet being a flat disc or moon landing hoaxes.
Check out way back machine to look at early YouTube and you’ll find so many videos with this crap and all of them had images of crusaders because those were the groups making these videos. They were organized racist Nazi fucks who built up this imagery of a new holy war. But it was too obvious the following waves racist social media posting just hid that it was coming from these fucking losers.
Fucking YouTube my people.
I am South African. Considering a move to another country so we were watching expat videos from that country. Fuck me if YT didn’t take two searches to start serving up content about white slums and the impact of Affirmative Action on the whites of SA.
To be clear I want to move for an adventure and to further my career. I’m mixed race and have no beef with AA, YouTube wants name to be a frustrated white person who wants to leave due to politics. Get fucked.
Cool story bro
What exactly is confusing about this? About two weeks ago I watched an episode of a show about atheism and within minutes I started getting ads for prayer and Bible apps. I played a math help vid for my 4th grader and started getting ads from Epoch Times about the globalist trans conspiracy. I started watching the Young Turks (liberal), and got Prager-U
YouTube ad program is targeted people with content that they don’t want.
Actually, it’s more of an anecdote. But mainly a comment or a reply, which is kind of the point of a forum-style social media site like Lemmy or Reddit.
In other words, unlike yours (and mine), they’re actually *contributing to the discussion.
edit: typo
Yours may not be contributing to the immediate discussion, but I would say that taking the time out to politely educate someone on etiquette is still contributing to the overall discussion on the forums.
Oh if I were to contribute you little shirt bird commies would just do what you do and downvote and get nasty, because you feel you’re superior on lemmy with majority far leftists.
So really you need not look far to find your own blatant “etiquette” violations all over the fucking place.
So do, please come off your high horse. I’ll get a ladder.
Hey Canada, can the confessed murder of most of an entire family inspired by far right propeganda finally be enough justification to ban that content in this country?
Seriously, can I just ask my MP this question? Can we all ask our MPs this question?
Man, Cheryl Gallant sends me enough crazy flyers already.
We take free speech seriously around here!!! Canadianflagbaldeagle.gif
This killer is looking for any excuse to make someone else look bad
So are you apologizing for a confessed racist murderer or the idiot convincing people that Muslims need to die?
?
The guy is guilty, he’s going to find as many excuses as he can in an attempt to make himself look less bad
The excuse won’t exonerate him. It will, however, allow regulators to understand root causes and take appropriate action to prevent further occurences.
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Like the Canadian one
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They also don’t start court until like 11am for this case every day and they usually adjourn by 3
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The crime he committed is extremely heinous and the Crown wants to make sure their case is bulletproof. The defense is trying to make it seem like because Veltman’s mom was abusive, he read alt-right garbage online, and took psilocybin the day before, he isn’t culpable for driving down the Afzaal family. He had no choice but to kill them, it wasn’t his fault. /s
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Lawyer here. Canada also has protections against self-incrimination and it is the same in principle as the US. In many cases where the defendant does not testify the defence strategy is poking holes in the prosecutor’s case, essentially that they have not met the burden of proof.
Keep in mind I haven’t really been following this case, just read snippets in the news. I’m guessing the prosecutor’s case is pretty solid on its own for first degree murder convictions. His lawyer determined the best way they can counter such a strong case is for him to testify. The defence strategy is probably to get a lesser conviction (second degree murder or manslaughter instead of first degree murder) or to get an NCRMD (not criminally responsible due to mental disorder). NCRMD is the “insanity defence”. His testimony about alt-right content will probably be part of his evidence to argue NCRMD.
A finding of NCRMD is neither a conviction nor acquittal. The person will be sent to a psychiatric hospital for however long until they deem him to be safe for release into the public, probably with supervision.
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Can they not do that in the US?
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How about slapping an “aiding and abetting” on Infowars?
The Qanon cultists in congress would never allow that.
That’s not an issue for congress, this is a legal affair and job of the DA and the court.
Like legalities have ever stopped them.
How do these people watch conspiratorial content and miss the fact that pale male European colonialism literally is the conspiracy?
How is it a conspiracy? It’s a fact that’s been quite well known for hundreds of years
That’s mostly the modern understanding, but the word also still means people working together to achieve something.
I thought that’s collusion/collaboration
A conspiracy is working with people secretly to do some illegal or wrong in some way. You aren’t conspiring with your teammates to win a soccer game.
The blame my upbringing defense. Nice.
Well yeah, how do you think people become who they are? Magic?
Yep. The guys a piece of shit but pieces of shit are not born that way. That level of hate is learned.
Yes, but it’s partly learned through conscious choice. He continued engaging with it, he chose his content.
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I think that members of a cult are partly responsible for some evil they do. Like I don’t care if you’ve been raised to believe that Warren Jeffs is a prophet, if you marry your prepubescent daughter to him you did that. And you bear some responsibility for not walking away beforehand (and frankly that’s more intense than condervativism because they will actively try to ruin your life over it). I think the people holding guns at Jonestown bore some responsibility too. David Miscavage isn’t some innocent duped by L Ron Hubbard, he chose to stick with Scientology and then act on it in evil ways. And as an adult he could’ve made a better decision.
Some victims bear no responsibility, but once you move to doing fucked up shit to others over it you do bear some responsibility. Because you could’ve walked away at any point and while it requires a lot of strength to do it, when it comes to choosing between being strong and hurting others we have a responsibility.
When you do a mass shooting after partaking in your own radicalization you are partly responsible for it.
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I said partly. No fucking shit Jones was influencing him. You don’t get drug addicts without both a supplier and consumer. Jones sells hate and delusion, this guy bought it and took it to deadly extremes. What I’ll also add is that jones sells normalization, militarization, and justification of it. Together they made this problem, both bear the responsibility.
The two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.
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“My Parents taught me to be a shitty person, waah” is pretty much it.deleted by creator
I was being facetious in my response, I should’ve put an /s. I’m all too aware of how well the right wing internet hole can suck you in, happened to my Dad. I’m also aware of how ingrained people’s prejudices can be because they don’t see too many people from other places after living in a pretty homogeneous suburb for a few years.
People suck basically. Thanks for the explanation though!
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Yeah we pretty much already just assumed that
We 100% knew that. What I’m curious about is how this shapes legal precedent moving forward. We have legal testimony proving the stochastic terror risk to right-wing media outlets like this, which may help clamp down on this rhetoric down the road.
“It isn’t my fault I was a monster! It was that nasty Alex Jones! Honest! YA GOTTA BELIEVE ME!”
Yeah, pull the other one.
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