Sorry, but as soon as you start blaming one imperialist more that the other, youāre pack, playing the imperialistsā games.
You are doing the same by capitulating to a fascist invasion without regard to the people being invadedā¦
Is Putin a horrible fascist? Yes.
But apparently not horrible enough to validate self defense?
Am I trusting the media that Ukraine wants to be a liberal paradise where everyone is free to do and say what they want
What the media says is irrelevant to the nature of the conflict. A sovereign nation is defending itself versus a fascist invasion.
long as they win this proxy war of Europe/the US? Nope.
Ahh, so Ukrainians have no autonomy or right to fight against an invasion? If Ukrainians were solely puppets of the US and Western Europe they wouldnāt be willing to lay their lives down for their country, nor could they have ever defended themselves against such a larger and more well equipped foe. They would have fallen to the initial invasion, just as Russia initially thought was going to happen.
The cognitive dissonance required to attack āthe mediaā while regurgitating pro Russian media is astounding. I really wonder if you are purposely being obtuse for propaganda purposes, or if you are just such a contrarian you actually believe the nonsense that you amplify.
Yeah I donāt like the government of Palestine. In fact I think they absolutely should fall. Israelās government on the other hand is generally more in line to itās citizens with what I believe. Israel is still in the wrong and committing genocide. I donāt have to like you to acknowledge your right to self defense
Sorry, Iām not nationalist enough for this discussion. I donāt agree to the abstraction that Ukraine is ādefending itselfā. The Ukrainian state is forcing itās male population to die for national interest.
All that stuff about sovereign nations doesnāt sound much like āno war but class warā to me.
When have I been āregurgitating pro Russian mediaā? Simply because I donāt buy NATOās narrative about being a ādefensive organizationā?
Sorry, Iām not nationalist enough for this discussion
Lol, you donāt believe in sovereignty, the right to self rule, or even in a group of people being able to defend against a group of people that you proclaimed to be fascist?
Sounds like you just like fascist.
the abstraction that Ukraine is ādefending itselfā
What exactly is abstract about people taking up arms to defend their families and loved ones?
The Ukrainian state is forcing itās male population to die for national interest.
Or maybe a people are defending themselves against a fascist invasion? I donāt think the people of Ukraine really have a high opinion of their own government or the US in general, but they seem to be willing to fight against fascist.
Like I said, if they were being forced en masse to fight against their will they would just be surrendering. You are once again repeating Russian propaganda.
sovereign nations doesnāt sound much like āno war but class warā to me.
Sovereignty in the face of imperialist attempting to subjegate a people isnāt class war? Again, are you really that stupid?
If so what would be your problem with NATO actually invading Russia?
When have I been āregurgitating pro Russian mediaā? Simply because I donāt buy NATOās narrative about being a ādefensive organizationā?
Lol, right thereā¦ The idea that NATO is some diabolical decades long plan to destroy Russia is ridiculous considering that Russia was part of a NATO joint council and wanted to join up until the late 2000s.
Russia only started spreading that idea when post Soviet states started to join because Russia was funding civil strife in those nations, notably Georgia. Until Russia started funding breakaway territories in their neighbors countryās NATO was nothing but a forum for the US to sell their arms.
You are obviously not arguing in good faith, or are just incredibly stupid.
Judging by your other post, itās looking like youāre just an accelerationist
ā¦so incredibly stupid it is.
Lol, you donāt believe in sovereignty, the right to self rule, or even in a group of people being able to defend against a group of people that you proclaimed to be fascist?
I donāt take the interest of the people living in Ukraine as the same as the Ukrainian state. Which sovereign? The people, who supposedly is āthe sovereignā or the system of power ruling over a liberal nationalist state with very strong repression on (leftist) activists.
Sounds like you just like fascist.
Please. This should be beneath you.
What exactly is abstract about people taking up arms to defend their families and loved ones?
Youāre talking about people and families, not about āUkraineā. You can use that abstraction, but I donāt agree with the premise of that abstraction. Iād rather not subjectivize the state.
I am an anarchist. I would like to separate the power structure from the containing entities (i.e.: I disagree with the common understanding of the purpose of the state).
Or maybe a people are defending themselves against a fascist invasion? I donāt think the people of Ukraine really have a high opinion of their own government or the US in general, but they seem to be willing to fight against fascist.
The cis-men (and some trans women) were drafted. Youāre talking about the power structure again. There may be a lot of voluntaries, but derserters are not tolerated.
Like I said, if they were being forced en masse to fight against their will they would just be surrendering. You are once again repeating Russian propaganda.
A part of them literally are forced. I didnāt say anything about āen masseā.
Do you think that Russia is the only actor spreading propaganda? O.o Itās even working in Europe: All of Germany (and I think France?) is incredibly hyped for militarization!
Sovereignty in the face of imperialist attempting to subjegate a people isnāt class war? Again, are you really that stupid?
You probably wonāt believe me, but I condemn any imperialism. Not just the one done by the ābad guysā.
You are literally talking about a war between sovereigns. Are you trying to explain to me that war between sovereigns is actually class war? Was WW1 only a long and (mostly) failed proletarian revolution to you? Would you have been on the side of the SPD when they agreed to the war bond in 1914?
If so what would be your problem with NATO actually invading Russia?
ā¦ Would that be ok with you? / am not the one in the camp of āinternational lawā and that borders may not be drawn by the sword.
Iād protest, too. Because I donāt like either colonialism. I can condemn both Israel and Hamas, too.
You didnāt specify much on the interest why NATO would do such a thing, so I canāt properly get into your scenario.
Lol, right thereā¦ The idea that NATO is some diabolical decades long plan to destroy Russia is ridiculous considering that Russia was part of a NATO joint council and wanted to join up until the late 2000s.
Youāre strawmanning me. I implied that NATO is an imperialist instrument. Itās an association of states to conduct war. Do you even have a proper definition of āImperialismā thatās not on the level of a Star Wars fan podcast?
NATO was nothing but a forum for the US to sell their arms
May I remind you that this discussion started with āno war but class warā. Who profited from these deals? Do you think there is such a thing as a āstable arms economyā? On the planet where the people stating that thereās no such thing as infinite growth on a finite planet are the communist lunatics? O.o
You are obviously not arguing in good faith, or are just incredibly stupid. Judging by your other post, itās looking like youāre just an accelerationist ā¦so incredibly stupid it is.
I think itās a shame that you feel obliged to steep to these lows. Feel free to not reply, if it upsets you that much.
donāt take the interest of the people living in Ukraine as the same as the Ukrainian state. Which sovereign? The people, who supposedly is āthe sovereignā or the system of power ruling over a liberal nationalist state with very strong repression on (leftist) activists.
You donāt have to agree with the policy of a state to validate their right to self defenseā¦ I donāt agree with all of the policy of the Palestinian state, does that mean they deserve to be genocided, or shouldnāt be allowed to defend themselves?
Please. This should be beneath you.
What do you call a person echoing all the talking points of a fascist state? If someone in the 30s was defending lebensraumā¦
I would call them a Nazi.
Youāre talking about people and families, not about āUkraineā.
Ahh, so how do you refer to the Palestinian genocide? Is this delineation from a state from the states people consistent in your ideology, or is it just performative?
I am an anarchist. I would like to separate the power structure from the containing entities (i.e.: I disagree with the common understanding of the purpose of the state).
Lol, you are an anarchist and yet you are defending a fascist state? How exactly is an anarchist failing to analyze the danger of such a hierarchical organization as modern Russia? Since when did anarchist capitulate to fascist? You are an embarrassment to anarchism and need to go read some Murray Bookchin.
The cis-men (and some trans women) were drafted. Youāre talking about the power structure again. There may be a lot of voluntaries, but derserters are not tolerated
Again, you are critical of the side defending themselves against a fascist state. You do realize Russia is also drafting people to perpetuate the war? Anarchist have a long history of aligning themselves with governments they donāt agree with to fight fascist, you know because fascism is antithetical to anarchism. What is wrong with you?
A part of them literally are forced. I didnāt say anything about āen masseā.
Ahh, so because the draft exists that means the fascist army that is also drafting people deserve to take what they want? So you know nothing of critical/mutual aid?
Do you think that Russia is the only actor spreading propaganda? O.o Itās even working in Europe: All of Germany (and I think France?) is incredibly hyped for militarization!
Becauseā¦? Oh yeah, a fascist nation started the first war in Europe for the first time in decades and has mobilized into a war time economy. Just because anarchist do not believe in certain aspects of the state does not mean they canāt provide critical support in the face of fascism, just as they have done in the past.
probably wonāt believe me, but I condemn any imperialism. Not just the one done by the ābad guysā.
But you are making a false equivocation between fascist and liberal imperialismā¦ Iām not a fan of any imperialism either, but I also recognize fascism as the worse form. As an anarchist you too should be able to make the same criticism based on the competing governments hierarchical structure of organization.
If you arenāt recognizing and evaluating based on hierarchy than you arenāt really an anarchist, youāre just a libertarian.
Are you trying to explain to me that war between sovereigns is actually class war?
Lol, are you confusing the definition of sovereignty with sovereignā¦as in a monarchy? In a democracy sovereignty belongs to the citizens. If we are analyzing hierarchical structures between Russia and Ukraine, which of the citizens posses more sovereignty over their government? The fascist nation led being led unconstitutionaly by a dictatorā¦
Or the struggling democracy defending itself from a fascist invasion?
Would that be ok with you? / am not the one in the camp of āinternational lawā and that borders may not be drawn by the sword.
Well, why would you have a problem with it? Your rebuttal with Ukraine is that you arenāt enough of a nationalist to believe in the abstract idea of a nation defending itselfā¦so what would be your problem with NATO doing the same thing Russia is doing to Ukraine?
Seems your argument changes depending on who is the aggressor.
Iād protest, too. Because I donāt like either colonialism. I can condemn both Israel and Hamas, too.
Lol, what a fucking coward. You arenāt an anarchist, you are just a contrarian sitting on the sidelines too afraid to make a stand. You are just a nihilist.
You didnāt specify much on the interest why NATO would do such a thing, so I canāt properly get into your scenario.
Werenāt you the one who didnāt believe that Russia was the aggressor? Again you are a coward and a dishonest one at that.
Youāre strawmanning me. I implied that NATO is an imperialist instrument. Itās an association of states to conduct war. Do you even have a proper definition of āImperialismā thatās not on the level of a Star Wars fan podcast?
No, you are just lying again. You said they werenāt a defensive organization, which is a line straight from the Kremlin.
May I remind you that this discussion started with āno war but class warā. Who profited from these deals? Do you think there is such a thing as a āstable arms economyā?
May I remind you that I started this by condemning American imperialismā¦ I didnāt claim that NATO wasnāt a form of imperialism, itās just not a fascist one. Again you are falsely equivocating imperialism with fascism.
I think itās a shame that you feel obliged to steep to these lows.
Iāve provided plenty of examples where your line of reasoning directly conflicts with your claims depending on who we are talking about. Also, claiming to be an anarchist and then tolerating fascism is the last straw. There isnāt a anarchist in modern history who wouldnāt create a common front to fight literal fascist.
If you really are being honestā¦which I highly doubt. You really need to read some more anarchist literature and maybe some history books. But again, you have too many conflicting ideas to be a reliable narrator.
You are doing the same by capitulating to a fascist invasion without regard to the people being invadedā¦
But apparently not horrible enough to validate self defense?
What the media says is irrelevant to the nature of the conflict. A sovereign nation is defending itself versus a fascist invasion.
Ahh, so Ukrainians have no autonomy or right to fight against an invasion? If Ukrainians were solely puppets of the US and Western Europe they wouldnāt be willing to lay their lives down for their country, nor could they have ever defended themselves against such a larger and more well equipped foe. They would have fallen to the initial invasion, just as Russia initially thought was going to happen.
The cognitive dissonance required to attack āthe mediaā while regurgitating pro Russian media is astounding. I really wonder if you are purposely being obtuse for propaganda purposes, or if you are just such a contrarian you actually believe the nonsense that you amplify.
Yeah I donāt like the government of Palestine. In fact I think they absolutely should fall. Israelās government on the other hand is generally more in line to itās citizens with what I believe. Israel is still in the wrong and committing genocide. I donāt have to like you to acknowledge your right to self defense
Especially considering heās claiming to be an anarchistā¦
When have you known an anarchist to capitulate to a country they describe as fascist?
Sorry, Iām not nationalist enough for this discussion. I donāt agree to the abstraction that Ukraine is ādefending itselfā. The Ukrainian state is forcing itās male population to die for national interest.
All that stuff about sovereign nations doesnāt sound much like āno war but class warā to me.
When have I been āregurgitating pro Russian mediaā? Simply because I donāt buy NATOās narrative about being a ādefensive organizationā?
Lol, you donāt believe in sovereignty, the right to self rule, or even in a group of people being able to defend against a group of people that you proclaimed to be fascist?
Sounds like you just like fascist.
What exactly is abstract about people taking up arms to defend their families and loved ones?
Or maybe a people are defending themselves against a fascist invasion? I donāt think the people of Ukraine really have a high opinion of their own government or the US in general, but they seem to be willing to fight against fascist.
Like I said, if they were being forced en masse to fight against their will they would just be surrendering. You are once again repeating Russian propaganda.
Sovereignty in the face of imperialist attempting to subjegate a people isnāt class war? Again, are you really that stupid?
If so what would be your problem with NATO actually invading Russia?
Lol, right thereā¦ The idea that NATO is some diabolical decades long plan to destroy Russia is ridiculous considering that Russia was part of a NATO joint council and wanted to join up until the late 2000s.
Russia only started spreading that idea when post Soviet states started to join because Russia was funding civil strife in those nations, notably Georgia. Until Russia started funding breakaway territories in their neighbors countryās NATO was nothing but a forum for the US to sell their arms.
You are obviously not arguing in good faith, or are just incredibly stupid. Judging by your other post, itās looking like youāre just an accelerationist ā¦so incredibly stupid it is.
I have them tagged as a foreign wedge driver fwiw.
They indeed do argue in bad faith.
Yeah, I honestly donāt know what these kinda people get out of wasting their days spreading this kinda shit. I guess misery loves company?
I donāt take the interest of the people living in Ukraine as the same as the Ukrainian state. Which sovereign? The people, who supposedly is āthe sovereignā or the system of power ruling over a liberal nationalist state with very strong repression on (leftist) activists.
Please. This should be beneath you.
Youāre talking about people and families, not about āUkraineā. You can use that abstraction, but I donāt agree with the premise of that abstraction. Iād rather not subjectivize the state.
I am an anarchist. I would like to separate the power structure from the containing entities (i.e.: I disagree with the common understanding of the purpose of the state).
The cis-men (and some trans women) were drafted. Youāre talking about the power structure again. There may be a lot of voluntaries, but derserters are not tolerated.
A part of them literally are forced. I didnāt say anything about āen masseā.
Do you think that Russia is the only actor spreading propaganda? O.o Itās even working in Europe: All of Germany (and I think France?) is incredibly hyped for militarization!
You probably wonāt believe me, but I condemn any imperialism. Not just the one done by the ābad guysā.
You are literally talking about a war between sovereigns. Are you trying to explain to me that war between sovereigns is actually class war? Was WW1 only a long and (mostly) failed proletarian revolution to you? Would you have been on the side of the SPD when they agreed to the war bond in 1914?
ā¦ Would that be ok with you? / am not the one in the camp of āinternational lawā and that borders may not be drawn by the sword.
Iād protest, too. Because I donāt like either colonialism. I can condemn both Israel and Hamas, too.
You didnāt specify much on the interest why NATO would do such a thing, so I canāt properly get into your scenario.
Youāre strawmanning me. I implied that NATO is an imperialist instrument. Itās an association of states to conduct war. Do you even have a proper definition of āImperialismā thatās not on the level of a Star Wars fan podcast?
May I remind you that this discussion started with āno war but class warā. Who profited from these deals? Do you think there is such a thing as a āstable arms economyā? On the planet where the people stating that thereās no such thing as infinite growth on a finite planet are the communist lunatics? O.o
I think itās a shame that you feel obliged to steep to these lows. Feel free to not reply, if it upsets you that much.
You donāt have to agree with the policy of a state to validate their right to self defenseā¦ I donāt agree with all of the policy of the Palestinian state, does that mean they deserve to be genocided, or shouldnāt be allowed to defend themselves?
What do you call a person echoing all the talking points of a fascist state? If someone in the 30s was defending lebensraumā¦ I would call them a Nazi.
Ahh, so how do you refer to the Palestinian genocide? Is this delineation from a state from the states people consistent in your ideology, or is it just performative?
Lol, you are an anarchist and yet you are defending a fascist state? How exactly is an anarchist failing to analyze the danger of such a hierarchical organization as modern Russia? Since when did anarchist capitulate to fascist? You are an embarrassment to anarchism and need to go read some Murray Bookchin.
Again, you are critical of the side defending themselves against a fascist state. You do realize Russia is also drafting people to perpetuate the war? Anarchist have a long history of aligning themselves with governments they donāt agree with to fight fascist, you know because fascism is antithetical to anarchism. What is wrong with you?
Ahh, so because the draft exists that means the fascist army that is also drafting people deserve to take what they want? So you know nothing of critical/mutual aid?
Becauseā¦? Oh yeah, a fascist nation started the first war in Europe for the first time in decades and has mobilized into a war time economy. Just because anarchist do not believe in certain aspects of the state does not mean they canāt provide critical support in the face of fascism, just as they have done in the past.
But you are making a false equivocation between fascist and liberal imperialismā¦ Iām not a fan of any imperialism either, but I also recognize fascism as the worse form. As an anarchist you too should be able to make the same criticism based on the competing governments hierarchical structure of organization.
If you arenāt recognizing and evaluating based on hierarchy than you arenāt really an anarchist, youāre just a libertarian.
Lol, are you confusing the definition of sovereignty with sovereignā¦as in a monarchy? In a democracy sovereignty belongs to the citizens. If we are analyzing hierarchical structures between Russia and Ukraine, which of the citizens posses more sovereignty over their government? The fascist nation led being led unconstitutionaly by a dictatorā¦ Or the struggling democracy defending itself from a fascist invasion?
Well, why would you have a problem with it? Your rebuttal with Ukraine is that you arenāt enough of a nationalist to believe in the abstract idea of a nation defending itselfā¦so what would be your problem with NATO doing the same thing Russia is doing to Ukraine?
Seems your argument changes depending on who is the aggressor.
Lol, what a fucking coward. You arenāt an anarchist, you are just a contrarian sitting on the sidelines too afraid to make a stand. You are just a nihilist.
Werenāt you the one who didnāt believe that Russia was the aggressor? Again you are a coward and a dishonest one at that.
No, you are just lying again. You said they werenāt a defensive organization, which is a line straight from the Kremlin.
May I remind you that I started this by condemning American imperialismā¦ I didnāt claim that NATO wasnāt a form of imperialism, itās just not a fascist one. Again you are falsely equivocating imperialism with fascism.
Iāve provided plenty of examples where your line of reasoning directly conflicts with your claims depending on who we are talking about. Also, claiming to be an anarchist and then tolerating fascism is the last straw. There isnāt a anarchist in modern history who wouldnāt create a common front to fight literal fascist.
If you really are being honestā¦which I highly doubt. You really need to read some more anarchist literature and maybe some history books. But again, you have too many conflicting ideas to be a reliable narrator.