Hey, I get this might be well intended but the context is a likely fictional greentext that whether by coincidence or design describes and captures a common trans experience. If that femboy was someone I was talking to or interacting with, of course I would respect his pronouns and so on, but it is important in lots of contexts to be able to read between the lines.
Taking a literal or dogmatic approach to the idea that people are only what they claim to be causes for example transmedicalists to argue that transmaxxers seeking HRT should be denied hormones - whereas I think it’s much easier to see that transmaxxers are more likely to be trans people having a hard time accepting they are trans, that is denial here is clearly more likely than fraudulence.
This is the same argument transmedicalists will make about femboys on HRT, and again I think we should read between the lines and reject the gatekeeping and moral panic about cis men stealing trans healthcare and recognize that if a self-identified “man” is on estrogen for their feminizing effects, they are probably a trans woman in denial and of course should be given access to hormones. Cis men tend to become depressed and anxious when on estrogen (see: David Reimer, Alan Turing, cis men who have used estrogen to treat prostate cancer, etc.).
(The same thing happens in the gay community around “men who have sex with men” refusing to acknowledge they are gay. I don’t have to disrespect those people by calling them gay to their face, but obviously we need to think of them as “gay” in some contexts.)
Of course reading between the lines shouldn’t result in being rude to someone by denying their prima facie identity to their face, but that’s not what I’m doing here by commenting on a greentext and pointing out the larger context for you.
I am happy that you care but you realize that I didn’t express that he shouldn’t get hrt. The person expressed that they are one and in public discours it is good to accept them like that. If the discussion would be about hrt, I would see where you are coming from to express your assumption but in this case, it is just not really accepting them. It is “I know better, you trans” over a concern that is in the context not expressed and visible.
Remember that trans people and “femboys” might read this and your words to me, a cis man, could impact them, that is why I am insist on calling him what he expressed, fictional or not.
Your concern is accepting and welcoming and trans people probably appreciate your concern and a “femboy” might understand you and accept that it isn’t a dismissal of him but a accepting of a trans person. But unstated, it will be read differently.
yeah, for context I’m a trans woman, this is my community - I personally know trans women who have conceived of themselves as just femboys, and I’ve struggled myself for decades with that kind of denial.
Regardless, I consider it a matter of harm-reduction to protect their right to HRT which does require clinicians acknowledging those people are trans. Denying they are trans and are really cis men does undermine the legitimacy of their access to HRT, since it requires a diagnosis and prescription. The way we conceptualize them can have consequences in healthcare contexts.
Furthermore I think we should be prioritizing supporting people embracing what they are and working past that denial (which clearly comes the socially oppressive conditions we find ourselves in, especially the hermeneutical injustice trans people experience and the pressure from transphobic stigma to remain closeted).
Just like the way the gay community tries to help people who are closeted without just forcing them to come-out (just like “men who have sex with men” I pointed out above), we should be clear-headed about the reality that this is closeted behavior while being polite, patient, and supportive as they work through that denial.
Meanwhile, insisting femboys on HRT can only be cis men because that’s how they identify comes across to me as particularly ignorant of the reality of how we as trans people struggle to conceptualize themselves and what that process commonly looks like. There is a lot of variety in trans experience, but there are also patterns and trends that emerge, and this greentext captures a very common story of how trans women conceptualize themselves.
I appreciate that you are so sensitive that you are defending the way someone is identifying, that is definitely the right way to go. My point is not to force a perspective on someone, but to clue you into the larger trans context of the greentext which your comments made me think you were oblivious to. Maybe I should have approached that educational moment in a better way, so I apologize for being so glib.
Hope you take care as well - thank you for your response and for being so considerate, it would be nice if more people were like you.
I really understand you and given your personal experience (and pain), your reaction might be a bit too confrontational but certainly understandable. I am sorry if I said anything that opened old wounds in you.
I obviously think accepting oneself is very important. I would be never deny the possibility of they being trans. I wasn’t and aren’t aware how often “femboy” is a expression of denialism, or if I misunderstood you, the more appropriate term. Thanks for clueing me in.
That being said, I don’t think I denied the possibility of him being trans but argued for accepting them in public discours however they identify. That doesn’t mean you can talk about the general tendency of closeted trans women in regards of being femboys in public. But maybe not about specific people. I am not affected and can’t tell, but I am really scared that arguing in public without the required context could be a way to unintentionally teach harmful behavior to people, naming publicly doubting and creating a somewhat hostile environment. I am cis straight but it doesn’t take me much empathy to find tears for the pain in the heart of the people we talk about. I just wanna less their pain and maybe that leads on the long term wrong path.
I wanna tell you good bye and hope to read you here again. I wish you happiness. Take care, sister.
Hey, I get this might be well intended but the context is a likely fictional greentext that whether by coincidence or design describes and captures a common trans experience. If that femboy was someone I was talking to or interacting with, of course I would respect his pronouns and so on, but it is important in lots of contexts to be able to read between the lines.
Taking a literal or dogmatic approach to the idea that people are only what they claim to be causes for example transmedicalists to argue that transmaxxers seeking HRT should be denied hormones - whereas I think it’s much easier to see that transmaxxers are more likely to be trans people having a hard time accepting they are trans, that is denial here is clearly more likely than fraudulence.
This is the same argument transmedicalists will make about femboys on HRT, and again I think we should read between the lines and reject the gatekeeping and moral panic about cis men stealing trans healthcare and recognize that if a self-identified “man” is on estrogen for their feminizing effects, they are probably a trans woman in denial and of course should be given access to hormones. Cis men tend to become depressed and anxious when on estrogen (see: David Reimer, Alan Turing, cis men who have used estrogen to treat prostate cancer, etc.).
(The same thing happens in the gay community around “men who have sex with men” refusing to acknowledge they are gay. I don’t have to disrespect those people by calling them gay to their face, but obviously we need to think of them as “gay” in some contexts.)
Of course reading between the lines shouldn’t result in being rude to someone by denying their prima facie identity to their face, but that’s not what I’m doing here by commenting on a greentext and pointing out the larger context for you.
I am happy that you care but you realize that I didn’t express that he shouldn’t get hrt. The person expressed that they are one and in public discours it is good to accept them like that. If the discussion would be about hrt, I would see where you are coming from to express your assumption but in this case, it is just not really accepting them. It is “I know better, you trans” over a concern that is in the context not expressed and visible.
Remember that trans people and “femboys” might read this and your words to me, a cis man, could impact them, that is why I am insist on calling him what he expressed, fictional or not.
Your concern is accepting and welcoming and trans people probably appreciate your concern and a “femboy” might understand you and accept that it isn’t a dismissal of him but a accepting of a trans person. But unstated, it will be read differently.
Take care.
yeah, for context I’m a trans woman, this is my community - I personally know trans women who have conceived of themselves as just femboys, and I’ve struggled myself for decades with that kind of denial.
Regardless, I consider it a matter of harm-reduction to protect their right to HRT which does require clinicians acknowledging those people are trans. Denying they are trans and are really cis men does undermine the legitimacy of their access to HRT, since it requires a diagnosis and prescription. The way we conceptualize them can have consequences in healthcare contexts.
Furthermore I think we should be prioritizing supporting people embracing what they are and working past that denial (which clearly comes the socially oppressive conditions we find ourselves in, especially the hermeneutical injustice trans people experience and the pressure from transphobic stigma to remain closeted).
Just like the way the gay community tries to help people who are closeted without just forcing them to come-out (just like “men who have sex with men” I pointed out above), we should be clear-headed about the reality that this is closeted behavior while being polite, patient, and supportive as they work through that denial.
Meanwhile, insisting femboys on HRT can only be cis men because that’s how they identify comes across to me as particularly ignorant of the reality of how we as trans people struggle to conceptualize themselves and what that process commonly looks like. There is a lot of variety in trans experience, but there are also patterns and trends that emerge, and this greentext captures a very common story of how trans women conceptualize themselves.
I appreciate that you are so sensitive that you are defending the way someone is identifying, that is definitely the right way to go. My point is not to force a perspective on someone, but to clue you into the larger trans context of the greentext which your comments made me think you were oblivious to. Maybe I should have approached that educational moment in a better way, so I apologize for being so glib.
Hope you take care as well - thank you for your response and for being so considerate, it would be nice if more people were like you.
I really understand you and given your personal experience (and pain), your reaction might be a bit too confrontational but certainly understandable. I am sorry if I said anything that opened old wounds in you.
I obviously think accepting oneself is very important. I would be never deny the possibility of they being trans. I wasn’t and aren’t aware how often “femboy” is a expression of denialism, or if I misunderstood you, the more appropriate term. Thanks for clueing me in.
That being said, I don’t think I denied the possibility of him being trans but argued for accepting them in public discours however they identify. That doesn’t mean you can talk about the general tendency of closeted trans women in regards of being femboys in public. But maybe not about specific people. I am not affected and can’t tell, but I am really scared that arguing in public without the required context could be a way to unintentionally teach harmful behavior to people, naming publicly doubting and creating a somewhat hostile environment. I am cis straight but it doesn’t take me much empathy to find tears for the pain in the heart of the people we talk about. I just wanna less their pain and maybe that leads on the long term wrong path.
I wanna tell you good bye and hope to read you here again. I wish you happiness. Take care, sister.