edited the heading of the question. I think most of us here are reasoning why more people are not using firefox (because it was the initial question), but none of that explains why it’s actively losing marketshare.
I don’t agree ideologically with Firefox management and am somewhat of a semi-conservative (and my previous posts might testify to that), I think Firefox browser is absolutely amazing! It’s beautiful and it just feels good. It has awesome features like containers. It’s better for privacy than any mainstream browser out there (even counting Brave here) and it has great integration between PC and Phone. It’s open-source (unlike Chrome) and it supports a good chunk of extensions you would need.
This was about PC, but I believe even for Mobiles it looks great and it allows features like extensions (and I hear desktop extensions are coming to firefox android?), it’s just a great ecosystem and it’s available everywhere unlike most FOSS softwares.
So why is Firefox’s market share dying?
I mean, I have a few ideas why it might be, maybe correct me I guess?
- Most people don’t know how to use extensions well and how to use Firefox well. (Most of my friends in their 30’s still live without ad blockers, so I don’t think many are educated here)
- It’s just not as fast as Chrome or Brave. I can’t deny this, but despite of this, I find it’s worthy.
- It’s not the default.
- Many features which are Google specific aren’t supported.
- Many websites are just not supporting firefox anymore (looking at you snapchat), but you would be right in saying this is the effect of Firefox losing it’s market share not the cause (at least for now) and you would be right.
But what else?
I might take time (a lot of it) to get back at you, thanks for understanding.
occasionally I’ll find websites that don’t work 100% because they were coded primarily for chromium based browsers. FU Google
“Most people” probably can’t name the browser they use. They just open “the internet” on whatever device they’re on.
Then why isn’t Edge more popular?
This isn’t the early 2000s anymore; people know how to download a browser.
Most don’t. Edge is increasingly becoming more popular as consumers switch to Windows 11.
The only non-techies I know that use Chrome are those I have installed Chrome for.
Most people who “just use the computer” these days DO use edge, in my experience.
All the older non tech people I interact with use phones and iPads almost exclusively. They boot up PCs (iMacs too) from 10 years ago once a year during tax time.
I see you never worked help desk before.
People are way dumber about tech than you think.
So many times I see screenshots shared by my non-IT friends of websites and it’s full of ads. Trying to get them to install an adblocker is a real challenge. Some of these people are actual engineers too, so fairly smart people otherwise. The “internet” is whatever browser is on their PC that works.
Also, a lot of people are using absolute potato PCs where the performance difference between Edge/Chrome and anything else used to be noticeable for years.
Let me introduce you to … “The Internet Icon”
I’ve seen it plenty of times that they use chrome AND edge. Simply because some things open in edge by default and they don’t know how to, or aren’t bothered to switch it.
lol you would be surprised
i feel like edge is thought to be internet explorer so the non tech people are like im gonna be a tech guy and get chrome.
Most does use it. It just come with some weird quirks, like my cousin’s Edge wiped itself clean after a Windows update, and I guided him towards FF
Edge is pretty popular. Here’s the stats for 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers#/media/File:StatCounter-browser-ww-monthly-202011-202011-bar.png
Ugh, sadly I feel like this is the most accurate answer. So many people don’t apply critical thinking to their device and don’t even understand they are using a browser to access the web.
Yeah, but ya know, people shouldn’t be required to “apply critical thinking” to what is effectively a passthrough device for them. Do you consider the choice of lubricant used for the serpentine belt in your car? Car dudes would say “ugh people should apply more critical thinking to their car”
Technology should be reasonable and functional, even if you’re not invested in the details
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I’ve never experienced any slowness with Firefox, so I don’t know what people are talking about. But Chrome is still the default browser on Android and I guess it’s the major reason why people are installing Chrome on their computer.
It’s improved a lot recently and even surpasses Chrome in some benchmarks, but it took them a really really long time to catch up with Chrome’s speed.
Chrome split up web pages into their own processes very early on, while Firefox still had to mostly run things single threaded. That made a huge difference especially on laptops with 4-8 slow threads.
Chrome also turned to the GPU for acceleration really early on too. That’s also something Firefox took a really long time to catch up with.
Like many, I’ve been on Chromium since the single digit days, and only switched back to Firefox in anticipation of the manifest v3 fiasco.
Chrome was just way too good to not use it. Chrome beat the shit out of Firefox the way Firefox beat the shit out of IE6 back then. It was so good I sucked up the lack of extensions or Flash Player support. It was faster to load ads than use Firefox to block them.
You’ve hit the major notes that made the biggest difference to switching in the early days. Worth mentioning too that in order to sow that field, chromium, then billed as an open source project, lifted much of those never IE power users out of Firefox specifically as well.
Similarly, if you want patrons to tell others what’s great about your new restaurant, give them at least three good things to evangelize for you.
Fast. Freebies. Friendly.
Back then, Chrome crushed it. Today, it’s equivalent to a joint being oversaturated with lazy managers taking advantage of gullible, unskilled teenagers and wondering why the whole place’s gone to shit.
Firefox outperforms in all the key areas IMO. It’s honestly a pretty cool space.
I agree majority of the regular people don’t even install a second browser on their device. My brother use chrome on android and edge on windows. Sad, but he likes it enough. I use firefox on all my devices. Because of the implication.
can anything be done legally about Chrome being the default browser on most android phones? I mean, there has to be some default browser but maybe Android manufacturers should be forced to pre-install a FOSS browser instead of chrome ig, idk (or maybe the user can be asked to install it when they are logging into their phones for the first time, this sounds better)
Iirc the some people in the EU wanted to take a look at googles almost-monopoly on the android market but I don’t think anything came out of it. It’s virtually no different from MS using Edge as default browser on Windows; as long as you can get an alternative, there isn’t anything wrong with it legally.
iirc, they already had to impelement, that you can choose the default search engine in Androids first setup.
Because not only do you (the end user) have to go out of your way to get it, but you get spammed by Microsoft/Edge and Google/Chrome to install a “faster” and “more secure” browser. Additionally, on the mobile side, Apple is preventing all iPhone/iPad users from picking a real alternative browser that isn’t just webkit re-skinned, putting half the population at a disadvantage and to their own corporate interests.
The Apple part might change quite soon, with the EU’s Digital Market Act. Apple will have to allow users to download apps from other markets than the Appstore.
That would be great! Hopefully they don’t screw it up and decide to make the feature available only if you’re in the EU.
They’re absolutely going to make it available only in the EU unless other countries also push for it with legislation.
It’s also going to have a lot of scary “Are you sure u want to compromise your safety?” boxes.
With these companies nothing would surprise me.
They’ll very likely try some fucky shit. Good news is 1) simply the existence of proper alternatives, even if required to be sideloaded, is a MASSIVE step forward and 2) I assume the EU will pursue them if only to suck money from their coffers. Blocking it to a EU citizen who is outside the EU absolutely violates the spirit of the law and the EU should come down on Apple with all their power if/when that happens
Don’t get your hopeS. JIT compilation is an integral part of all modern JavaScript engines, and JIT compilation requires violating the static W^X principle that is currently mandated by iOS for security. Not to mention that allowing third party browser engines would probably increase Blink’s (Chrome, Edge) market share more than Gecko’s.
Your first point is made irrelevant by the law existing. It doesn’t matter what Apple says now, they must comply or face fines for violation. Maybe they’ll bring that up at a future court hearing to which I say: I hope the EU imprisons Tim Cook if they try. Why? Fuck em that’s why
What exactly does the regulation entail? Apple can allow side-loading while maintaining kernel-level security measures like this one.
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It’s uses safari’s engine, which is the only one allowed by Apple. Doesn’t matter what browser you download from the store.
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All browsers on iOS are just reskinned Safari, because that’s the only thing iOS allows you to install.
This is a really great reason not to use iOS.
I think you think too much, most people just want a browser that works and they have one preinstalled on their phone / computer. So when you arrive and recommend Firefox they just hear “Hey ! You have a browser that works, why won’t you spend time installing this one that works just as fine, I swear”.
Extensions and privacy might look like killer features but they are a bit too abstract to be adoption arguments (why would you even need extensions if your browser is so good).
Spent twenty years burning out every committed advocate with broken extensions, UI whack-a-mole, random half-baked corporate decisions, and finally just giving up and being “like Chrome but.”
Meanwhile Google engages in blatant anti-competitive behavior to claw ever more market-share away from everything and everyone, and American politics are too much of a dumpster fire to stop them.
Literally the only other browsers that are other browsers are Firefox and Safari, and people only use Safari because iOS is a prison. iPhone users will insist their reskinned Safari webview is-too Firefox or Chrome or whatever, and then wonder why anyone makes a big deal about browsers when everything they’ve tried works exactly the same.
Yup. If I used iOS, I’d probably use Brave because it seems to be the only one with an ad blocker.
But I don’t use iOS, so I use Firefox with an ad blocker installed, and I think it’s great. But I can’t really recommend mobile Firefox because many of my coworkers use iOS and that recommendation won’t work for them.
So if someone asks what to use, I need to ask what platform they’re on. And that sucks.
Safari on iOS supports extensions as of the last couple years, and AdGuard is available for it. Works great!
Good to hear!
I just wish they would allow other browser engines on iOS.
Yeah, that’d definitely be another big improvement. At least Safari doesn’t add to Chrome’s marketshare though
I love how when new waves of people discover old technology, there are always these types of fundamental questions.
Firefox has been here for a long time. Plenty of people use it. Casuals don’t care about what browser they have installed. That’s the entire conversation!
The actual interesting part of these questions popping up is the staggering lack of awareness. We can click your profile, and, as I’ve linked above, see you try Firefox for the first time, ever. Then, you proceed to ask fundamental questions like the one in this thread without referencing that you’re brand new to the software, or that you haven’t bothered to look up previous discussions.
As for being the “reasonable conservative” in the room, well, I’ll let that speak for itself.
I used to use Firefox before Chrome came out, because it was better than IE. When Chrome came out it was a breath of fresh air. A real third option! (konqueror didn’t really count). And it was faster, cleaner, lighter than Firefox. Just better at everything. So I installed it on all of my family’s computers, which they allowed me to do because IE by then was so bad it was an obvious improvement even for the layman.
Then in the intervening years Firefox dwindled to basically no market share and IE died, so now Chrome isn’t a third option, it’s the only option. And so I switched back to Firefox basically as a political sacrifice, but there’s no way I’m going to be able to convince any of my family to switch because Firefox isn’t better for them in any perceivable way. It’s just different and they don’t care. If Firefox had 30% market share I’d almost definitely be using Chromium still myself.
So probably that, but a million times. There was a period where every nerd moved all their associated people to Chrome because it was new, great, and non-dominant. It was hip and indie. And now they’re still there and there’s no reason for them to move that they care about.
konqueror didn’t really count
But Konqueror is where we got Webkit from!
Opera was also an option… I used Opera from ~2003 until when they switched to Chrome’s engine (2012 I think?)
Netscape had the best gif-icon though, that star fall was gorgeous
Netscape 🛞 Navigator
Yes, I do have a soft spot for Netscape Navigator. It will always be my first…
I’ll admit I used to use Konqueror for a while. Plus I much preferred it as a file browser to Dolphin (even now I begrudgingly accept Dolphin). Problem for me was always plugins. I’ve used most browsers under the sun, but I can’t ethically support Chrome or Edge. I remember early versions of NS and AMosaic, Phoenix, Firebird (the latter two were what Firefox used to be called).
I will openly admit Mozilla has made some huge “WTF?” calls though. They alienated a lot of people with some of their design/technical decisions that I think fucked them more than they realised.
I’ve basically made my parents use firefox for 15 years now. With adblocking and cookie warning disabled and stuff like that. Since a few years they’re more and more on the iPhone, not on laptop with firefox… “why are there so many advertisements on the phone? Can’t you fix it like on the laptop?” Nope. I can’t, you chose iPhone. Had no idea all these years how much they were shielded from bs by firefox. For an average user it just boils down to ‘it’s too complicated’, use whatever shit software they force on them and don’t ask fundamental questions… Firefox became the browser for privacy nerds, lost its mainstream appeal in the period that chrome definitely was a lot faster and smoother and was still a bit less evil corp about addons
Firefox being slow has almost nothing to do with Mozilla’s incompetence or the browser’s inability to handle websites.
When devs build websites, they usually build them for the most popular browser, aka Chrome. They couldn’t be bothered to help the minority of people who use Firefox. Also, cost. Building a website to work with 2 different engines is more expensive than building it for just one engine that’ll work for 99% of users. That’s why a lot of banking websites never support FF.
Another primary reason is Google’s Monopoly. Almost everyone uses some Google service or another. Google’s websites are tailored to perfectly fit Chromium, not FF. This is why you’ll sometimes see websites break or even crash. YouTube’s recent ambient mode made the site choke quite a lot on FF. An average Joe ain’t got the knowledge to know or even troubleshoot the issue and they’ll just shift to Chromium, where everything just works.
It’s almost like web is built on open technologies, and you would expect the same code to run without issues on different engines.
Until one engine goes berserk because they know they can and no one will stop them.
Was this an AI answer or something? It’s really weird to go out of your way to bold all the brand names…
I kinda like doin’ that. Dunno why. I’m a sucker for perfectionism.
Not Chromium, Chrome
I mean to say for normal folks, they only know Chrome not Chromium.
Because there are 378 different variations of Chromium preinstalled on the OS with the largest market share and then another 63 Chromium browsers advertised as a “safer more secure” alternative that people don’t know is just Chrome again.
Firefox is not a worse browser, it’s just the lack of visibility. You have to want to install Firefox to try it, the only exception I know it’s in Linux where most of the time it’s the default browser. Google Chrome, on the other hand, is promoted each time you search anything in Google without Google Chrome.
I thought “wait a second, I’ve never seen this”, before realizing I haven’t used Google for probably almost a decade now. I’m out of touch I guess
Declining market share and dying are not at all the same thing. Remember that FOSS can survive without resources tha M$ and ABC have.
Anyway, what do you mean you’re conservative? I don’t understand at all. What values pushed you to what browsers? Laziness and defaults, maybe, but that’s a different position.
what do you mean you’re conservative?
He means “waah waah! They’re oppressing me by not agreeing with me!!!” Conservatives hate the consequences of their actions.
Hey there now. BoTh SiDeS tHo /s
Eh, even as someone who on a global political scale is left leaning, I’ve been hesitant to donate to Mozilla. I’d love to support the browser development, but the fact that they siphon off money from that to support political activities and organizations (especially when some of them are downright corrupt, like BLM) turns me off from that.
When I want to donate to a political organization, I’ll do that directly. What I want Mozilla to do, most of all, is keep firefox (and by extension gecko) alive, and thereby maintain internet freedom.
Maintaining a browser for the modern web is a massive undertaking that needs funding.
I was using Firefox before Chrome when it took significant market share from Internet Explorer.
In my view a large reason was corporations made the (IMO) big mistake of using Chrome for applications and as a browser.
It’s the classic Microsoft effect of people get comfortable using it at work and then don’t change.
It also doesn’t hurt that Chrome is tied to the majority of smart phones.
Firefox does not have a way to force them into it.
- ChromeOS - Chrome only. Default. Google.com beggs you to get an account and try Chrome. Android, comes with Android preinstalled.
- Windows - Annoying Try Edge popup force them during boot. Bing Chat is Edge Only.
Many Linux distributions include Firefox as a default browser, but GNU/Linux is not very popular on desktop either…
True, and sad.
I use Firefox everywhere, but there are a few main issues that stop me from converting people…
- The lack of tab groups. This seems silly, but most people I know, especially on mobile, keep a lot of tabs open. If they’re researching something, or shopping for something they’ll leave 20 tabs open. Having that in one tab group in Chrome is a better way to organize than just tons of tabs.
- Sites that don’t work well on Firefox. Again, specifically on mobile I run into sites that work on Chrome but not on Firefox.
- General stability issues. I need to force close Firefox once or twice a day because it will just fail to load pages.
Once or twice a day!? That’s crazy, I wonder if others have this problem as well. I use Firefox on PC, Linux, Android, and IpadOS and I’ve never even approached stability issues that bad. My assumption is there’s something wrong with your device…
This has been going on for years across multiple devices. Basically since the rewrite. Only on Android, never on Linux.
I love using Firefox. Have been loyal user for over 15 years. But quite a few sites just don’t work as intended… including online banking, city government etc. The issue has grown a lot in recent years. It’s a pickle to adjust addons for every site with issues, so j just use chrome or Edge or whatever and keep the firefox settings optimised for ad free cookie warning free trackerless experience in newspaper, YouTube etc. To me it’s inconvenience is just a regular reminder that Internet has gone to shit and more and more sites contain a shitload of unnecessary bullshit no one asked for
These in my experience are always because of your privacy settings, resist fingerprinting is a good one.
I run Firefox with a hardened config and with a few privacy and security extensions so I run into this all the time. It’s frustrating sure but I usually just pop open edge, do what I need to and then close it out.
I try not to make a habit of sacrificing security and privacy for convenience unfortunately for Chrome and chromium.
Tab groups would really be nice. I don’t know why they don’t just implement it for Firefox already, even though it’s not a big deal.
There’s an extension for that
There’s not a good enough™ one. Genuinely that’s the biggest thing I miss using Firefox over chrome
This is it exactly. The ones that exist are ok, but not on par with what chrome provides. That said, I still use Firefox whenever possible
Not on Android.
Firefox was long the No 2 browser, then Chrome came along at the time that Google was cool and they actually marketed it with TV ads. It looked cooler and more modern, it had some innovative features… Firefox never recovered
This is pretty much what happened, yes. I’d offer an important expansion on “innovative features” though. Chrome was objectively faster at everything. Loading pages, starting up, all that stuff. If all you care(d) about was a super fast, modern-feeling browsing experience then Chrome was all there was.
I was one of those “fuck Bill Gates!” dudes circa 2008 or 09 or whenever Chrome came along. I had been using Firefox for years because, I dunno, nerd shit. All my nerdy buddies used it and said I should use it, so I did.
And then Chrome came along and like you say Google was the cool kid on the block. They were building out Google Fiber (remember that? Feels bad), “taking it to the man ™️!” in the form of ISPs. Oh God, how I wish they had won that fight… Even the might of Google proved incapable of breaking the collusion of government and corporations that empower the ISPs in the US…
Anyway, Google was, if I’m being fair here, doing an amazing job with PR.
They were building up and out Android OS, providing an actual competitor to Apple’s (basically) first to market iOS.
Mozilla simply couldn’t keep up. It was already pretty niche pre-Chrome, but post-Chrome it was just IE/Edge and Chrome basically. Firefox was left far behind by the general public, forgotten and, if remembered, remembered only as “the browser for nerds.”
I’m back on Firefox now after Google’s billionth threat to end adblockers in Chrome. That plus Google’s clearly unethical practices. I don’t agree with everything Mozilla does/has done and some of the stuff that comes prepackaged in Firefox is unnecessary in my view, BUT there’s little point in denying their superiority over the competition in many ways.
I remember definitely that Firefox was the browser of choice in our house pre-Google. IE was always nasty to use and my Dad was always a tinkerer and worked with IT guys a lot so we had Firefox on PC for ages
(As a side note those same well meaning IT guys persuaded my Dad Linux was really easy to set up and use as a home PC for the whole family. Didn’t end well)
Anyway, Firefox was trumping IE hands down as a family PC browser, I suppose I’m talking late 90s early naughts? Don’t know exactly. But we would have been using Ask Jeeves still as our search engine before Google search launched and that made my Dad’s eyes light up, because it was fast. And it was the same with Chrome when it came out. By then I’d moved out but like you say, they had the PR as the guys who were now changing things most.
And it wasn’t all bs, because it was and in many ways is a very good browser. On the one hand there’s definitely an element of people using what everyone else does but also, if it was a total crock of shit no one would use it. For me it’s not even so much privacy but my tolerance for ads and need for a dark mode on mobile have got me back to Firefox on Android for now
People forget that chrome brought v8 with it. Without v8 chrome would have just been another hat in the ring for browsers.
V8 took JavaScript from being this little thing that did some light ajax stuff in the background, and made it the star of the show. It allowed entire applications to run in the front end with no installation. Firefox and IE couldn’t match the speeds chrome could do.
Chrome running each tab in a separate process was a big deal for sites being able to have more application-like functionality without bugs slowing or crashing the whole browser.
Firefox took seven years to catch up with its own multiprocess implementation.
Ah yeah I forgot about that!
