I don’t understand what is so reprehensible about trans kids being able to socially transition to live as their chosen gender? Social transition is clothing and behaviour, not surgical or medical. If the kid doesn’t like it, they tried it, found out for themselves, and can stop whenever they want.
And what is so evil about trans kids being able to choose to delay puberty till 18, so they can as legal adults, then decide if they want to safely medically and surgically transition, or not and go through the puberty of their birth gender?
Going through puberty in the wrong body causes unbelievable distress to many trans kids, leading to eating disorders, self harm, suicide, and a whole load of other awful mental and physical problems.
Why is safely alleviating harm to these children by allowing them to socially transition and delay puberty, a bad thing?
No trans child is getting surgery. Puberty blockers are safe and entierly reversible.
Gender affirming care has nothing to do with your disgusting paedophillic fantasies about children, and that you even correlate the two IS reprehensible and very telling of the type of person you are.
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Intersex children (born with undefined anatomy) get operated on at doctors discretion from their birth onwards, but this isn’t a conversation about that, however immoral and harrowing it is.
They JUST told you, no one is advocating for surgeries in children. What they are advocating for is what has been done for ages - puberty blockers and therapy until they are of the age to make the decision for themselves.
You keep referring to “surgery” and now “chemical therapy” (I assume you mean hormones), but that’s not at all what is supposed to happen with children, it’s a straw man made up by by the right wing.
You say “it’s our job to give them time to grow into a decision or an identity before making a lasting choice” and that’s EXACTLY what’s been happening and is still under assault by these anti-trans laws that keep getting passed in the confederate states.
They don’t want them to exist so they are trying to legislate them away.
Blockers are still a change. Inhibiting your sexuality at that age drives a bigger rift between you and your peers. More so than feeling a bit different. I was blessed enough to grow up with a profoundly diverse group of friends and we supported each other regardless of our choices in sexuality as we grew into our identity. Choosing to deny a change may as well isolate them further.
To your point about state laws against trans rights there is a LOT to unpack there but I was very clear about my stance of protect and support but do not intervene (in development.)
Blockers are still a change. Inhibiting your sexuality at that age drives a bigger rift between you and your peers. More so than feeling a bit different.
What’s your source for this?
Also, I’m not sure I would describe someone going through this process as “feeling a bit different”.
The great thing about blockers is that you can stop them if they aren’t right for you.
To your point about state laws against trans rights there is a LOT to unpack there but I was very clear about my stance of protect and support but do not intervene (in development.)
Am I reading this correct that you seem to think that your “don’t let anyone take puberty blockers” stance is somehow protecting and supporting? And preventing others that from being able to do so is “not intervening”?
Growing up. Life experiences of myself and friends.
Kids are shitty and form cliques. Frequently. If your opinion or (perish the thought) your appearance were to differ - it makes you a far bigger target. Taking something to increase that difference will result in more of that behavior.
On blockers:
I won’t disagree that blockers are a gentler approach but they are not a magic bullet and do actually run the risk of lasting effects. Very little long term research has been done outside of animals and frankly I don’t think testing on children is the best way to go about it.
Much like steroids or any other drug you can absolutely stop if you don’t think it’s for you but what of the physical changes that occur in the meantime? Side effects are known and listed on even the mayo clinic website. Ill reiterate: why are we letting children take on these additional risks as if they don’t exist?
On your first point, does the evidence show that taking puberty blockers makes you more socially isolated? I have seen no evidence of that at all, and instead there’s a mountain of evidence that social transition and puberty blockers lower suicidality in trans kids and increase mental health outcomes.
We’ve been using puberty blockers, not just for trans kids but for precocious puberty for decades and have more than enough long term evidence of their effectiveness and safety. No drug or procedure is without risk, but why is that only a problem for this issue? Are you also against kids getting chemo? I mean, they certainly don’t fully understand the risks of chemo do they?
The question of consent and knowledge of risk is a red herring. Kids can’t consent to any medical procedures or sex because we’ve defined consent that way. But consent from the patient is not always needed for medical procedures, especially when the patient is unable to give consent. Should coma patients still get care that has risks? They can’t consent right?
Consent is given by the parents and the medical professionals who have the authority to make those decisions. You can ask the kid, and they usually do, but their consent does not matter. That’s how all medical procedures work with kids.
In reality, your statements lay bare a bias, which is why you’re getting downvoted. You only seem to care about risks and consent for this specific highly-politicized topic and not medical procedures broadly. Because this is not about a broad critique of consent, it’s about trying to excuse your uncomfortablity with this one subject and trying to justify it in any way you can.
You don’t have to understand it, and you don’t have to agree with it, but you should at least recognize why the majority of major medical institutions make the recommendations they do. And, shockingly, it’s not because they somehow forgot it was involving kids, it’s because they know a little more about the topic and nuances than you do.
On your first point… [truncated] …I have seen no evidence of that at all, and instead there’s a mountain of evidence that social transition and puberty blockers lower suicidality in trans kids and increase mental health outcomes.
Most of those tests you refer to also involve therapy / councilling in combination with the drugs and very few compare the two. Further there aren’t a ton of studies that involve blind tests and placebos. I’ll stress again that I am not against this therapy - I am against it so early in the adolescents development process.
We’ve been using puberty blockers, not just for trans kids but for precocious puberty for decades and have more than enough long term evidence of their effectiveness and safety.
Which is why it’s an allowed treatment, yes. But many drugs have multiple usages and in fact multiple doses which affects the end result. Dialing back an aggressive hormonal rush is a bit different than seeking to prevent it outright: which is the goal sought in this case. There are health risks to doing this and as I have asserted elsewhere: urgency is manufactured here. An adolescent needs to feel loved and supported at that stage- not like a mistake that needs immediate care.
The question of consent and knowledge of risk is a red herring. Kids can’t consent to any medical procedures or sex because we’ve defined consent that way. But consent from the patient is not always needed for medical procedures, especially when the patient is unable to give consent. Should coma patients still get care that has risks? They can’t consent right?
This is why I made the example I did. They cannot provide consent (as it isn’t informed - even if it is explained to them.) This isn’t a life or death decision that needs to be made immediately. It involves the rest of that childs hopefully long life. I see no reason to rush into a decision involving drugs which may impact that. And this is, in fact, how most medical professionals should (and do) approach that.
In reality, your statements lay bare a bias, which is why you’re getting downvoted. You only seem to care about risks and consent for this specific highly-politicized topic and not medical procedures broadly. Because this is not about a broad critique of consent, it’s about trying to excuse your uncomfortablity with this one subject and trying to justify it in any way you can.
Please detail how “too early for consent” somehow means “not at all”. That’s illogical. I support (as I have said multiple times) consentual therapy… but not that early. Consent should be given by the adolescent when they are legally and mentally capable of making such a choice. My statements and stance are very clear. If you disagree with it that’s perfectly fine. You are entitled to your opinion as well… but don’t go manufacturing some narrative as to what I believe or who I am.
…but you should at least recognize why the majority of major medical institutions make the recommendations they do.
I covered this above but most recommended therapy/counseling first then move onto drugs. I’m reasonably confident.
While on the topic of what professionals do: My family is littered with medical professionals ranging from people who develop drugs, work with children who need said drugs, are pediatricians and so on. It’s a long list. From the development side there are a number of educators as well. K-12, special needs… you name it. I personally travel between hospitals for work and rub elbows with some fantastically bright individuals in many fields. I suspect I may know a thing about what is recommended and how testing is done - but please explain it further to me if you feel I lack perspective.
Perhaps some of your preconceived notions about me may be changing? I am advocating for the child, the adolescent, the individual - who needs the proper care… rather than being part of the wailing masses too busy virtue signaling and brigadeing to actually discuss what is right rather than what feels good.
Don’t pull this shit again. You are against the use of puberty blockers because there would be no use for them after the person is done with puberty. You want them to wait until they are 18, when they are done with the vast majority of physical effects to start treatment. And the only reason you’ve given is “I just don’t think they need it yet, they need love not drugs.” Present evidence of harm or shut the fuck up. You’re fear-mongering over something you don’t understand and it has actual harm to other people.
If you think the use is so different that the dangers outweigh the risks then prove it. The institutions that study this don’t. The organizations that make policy based on those studies don’t. You don’t get to just “but it feels different” you have to provide evidence that it is different and harmful in a way the other studies wouldn’t have caught.
It’s “not at all” for puberty blockers because, again, you want kids to go through puberty before undergoing any gender therapy. If you had studied this at all you’d know why the medical organizations recommend starting before puberty. Puberty is the harm they are looking to alleviate and you can’t do that by waiting until after puberty to start treatment.
I’ll read your intentions as much as I want because you’re a fucking book. It’s easy to see exactly why you are here and making the arguments you are. Do you really think this is the first time most of us have seen a “just asking questions” and “this is pedophilia” argument? You don’t have to tell me you’re a duck, you already walked and talked like one.
I don’t give a fuck about your family or friends. Do you have a medical degree? Did you do any studies on this matter? Do you have any relevant training or expertise?
They are changing, but not in the way you think. I’ve read this book before, I know how it ends. That said, I’m enjoying wasting your time and calling you the bigot you are. I have a feeling you don’t hear that enough in your life so I’m happy to provide that for you.
You are advocating for your own feels. If you actually gave a flying fuck about the kids this affects you’d follow the recommendations of the people who actually studied this shit. Or at least present even one piece of evidence.
Puberty blockers are used after talking with a doctor and determining that the benefits of delaying puberty outweigh the potential risks. That’s how pretty much everything is prescribed for everyone, including children.
In a lot of these cases, the risk of not delaying puberty can include self-harm, suicide, adult gender dysphoria, less social acceptance as an adult, and being less satisfied with life as an adult.
It’s a balance. This isn’t a disease - many of the things you listed are psychological and the result of how family and friends treat that person. It’s not terribly different from someone starting to realize they may be gay, asexual, or any other of many non-typical alignments. We shouldn’t be so quick to push someone on the path for drugs when what they need is time and emotional support.
Alright so I’m happy to expand on this but you first: You have only said gender isn’t what I said it is. Go ahead and explain simply what you believe it is and what you perceive it’s purpose to be.
Your dinner statement is comparing apples and oranges but sure, I’ll bite:
A child hates brussel sprouts. They know this because they have had them and can form an informed decision based on their experiences. The first time at aunt Mary’s party they were bad but that was one time. Since then there have been multiple times of eating and disliking this food. They are sure they don’t like them. Experience helps form our decisions. I could continue but I trust you understand and can extrapolate from there.
I’m happy to continue this dialogue (on either front) but would like you to actually place your definitions and where you stand on the table first.
Gender is a social construct around behavioural and social traits, sexuality is who one is sexually attracted to, I honestly cannot see how you can correlate the two beyond “this gender is usually heterosexual”.
Point 2: children should not make puberty decisions unless they are mature, and to be mature they must go through puberty
If a child is mature enough to go through puberty, then they should be mature enough to make decisions about their puberty.
Why force someone to go through a puberty they hate, and only after they are finished and the changes become irreversible do you allow them to make a decision on how they wish to mature?
I understand this point of view because I used to also hold it, but I’m trying to express to you that forbidding puberty blockers causes the exact same problem, someone uninformed on a subject comes to regret their action (or inaction).
You opened the dialogue with me, friend. You asked me about my opinion and I explained it. I asked you for the same courtesy and you responded with that. Be civil.
I even made a pretty good example of that laughable comparison you asked me to. Rather pleased with it, tbh.
Now: If what you say is true then nobody would be needing reassignment therapy. It doesn’t matter who you sleep with or what’s in your pants after all.
Now we know that is not true and there is a difference between a man who is gay and a man who is transitioning to a woman. Further it is absolutely about sexuality. We are sexual beings. Our identity is tethered to it. That is the whole point of the transition. Becoming a ______ (who you believe yourself to be.)
Yes: relationships are not only sexual and can be formed for many reasons … but to say that it isn’t sexual nor tied to what is in your pants is simply incorrect or misinformed.
I didn’t ask you for anything and you didn’t explain anything to me. This was my first comment in this thread. Maybe take some time and see who you are responding to first?
You can shove your civility politics up your ass. Being civil doesn’t make it not bigoted and doesn’t make you right.
Since you are too lazy to look them up yourself and do the legwork, I’ll do it for you:
Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.
Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.
Sexuality is a person’s identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, etc.
If your definition is as broad as you imply, everything is your sexuality and therefore kids doing anything and having any options at all are sexual in nature. Your definition is useless.
No, in essence gender and sexuality are not the same and you seem to be saying they are. If after discussing with a doctor and parents or legal guardian if the best course of action is to prescribe puberty blockers so they can make an informed decision about hormones when 18 I see nothing wrong with that or equivalent to sexualizing children.
If puberty blockers inhibit hormones and hormones are responsible for the development of our brains and identity: how is hitting pause allowing for an informed decision?
I have more to say on this but I want to keep this discussion focused.
If puberty blockers inhibit hormones and hormones are responsible for the development of our brains and identity:
I’m going to need a source that puberty blockers have negative effects on cognitive development to accept that if. If puberty related hormones were necessary to consider someone an adult then people who are missing those hormones or puberty by mutation, disease, etc wouldn’t be considered adults which is not the case.
how is hitting pause allowing for an informed decision?
It prevents the acute release of puberty related hormones until they are old enough to be considered an adult under the law and able to make decisions about what they do or don’t consent to. The informed decision to prevent permanent changes by taking puberty blockers is made by a medical professional with parental or guardian consent to allow the child to mentally mature and make their own choice about taking hormones. One literary review notes the following positive and negative effects: "Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life. Adverse factors associated with use were changes in body composition, slow growth, decreased height velocity, decreased bone turnover, cost of drugs, and lack of insurance coverage. "
I’m going to need a source that puberty blockers have negative effects on cognitive development to accept that if. If puberty related hormones were necessary to consider someone an adult then people who are missing those hormones or puberty by mutation, disease, etc wouldn’t be considered adults which is not the case.
This is two different things. It’s a fairly well known fact that the maturation of the adolescent mind is during puberty… which is the result of the aforementioned chemicals. I’ll further that by saying if you acknowledge someone is chemically different - is stunting that change actually a good thing? The answer isn’t known. There are too few peer reviewed studies with sufficient data to provide a credible answer.
As far as considering adulthood - I’d suggest tabling that as it unwinds into some ugly side conversations all of which have validity … but doesn’t belong here. There is a reason we use age as a generic determinant… and that is tied to general brain maturity and experience.
It prevents the acute release of puberty related hormones until … [truncated]
This is the problem. (I’ve made this assertion elsewhere in this thread) Those hormones are responsible for more than just sexual development. We can’t actually pause our bodies. We are bypassing a part of the development phase and saying “see it started again” when in reality it was just continuing for the remaining period it was supposed to be active for. This has side effects. (which you noted- See the definitions and risks on the mayo clinic site.)
Physical implications aside… we get very chicken and egg here: So do the parents recognize the child is the wrong sex and bring them to the doctor … or the child says I’m the wrong sex and the aforementioned happens? Obviously the latter. Based on that the child is making the decision based on minimal experience and should be given counselling and time to make that decision as they develop. Your mention of self image and suicide is not uncommon amongst teens period. Providing guidance and understanding is how that is solved… but we as Americans are very good at throwing pills at that problem… and frequently do.
None of the known risks or side effects include cognitive impairment, you are attributing to puberty blockers changes to cognitive development without research demonstrating the causal link between limiting puberty hormones and decreased or slowed cognitive development like the known negative effects. I also wouldn’t accept increased cognitive development as a positive effect under puberty blockers without justification either. Until there is sufficient justification for either position we are not justified reaching either conclusion.
I am concerned there is and will be increased public resistance to what the medical consensus supports because of the political scapegoating trans people are under, and wonder if we were talking about transhumanism in general instead focused specifically on transgenderism would the resistance be the same.
The discussions you’ve mentioned would likely start with a child experiencing distress reported to an adult or their parents noticing their distress and working with a medical doctor to identify the causes and treatment plans to consider. In the cases where the distress is related to a lasting pattern of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity that is one of the criteria for prescribing puberty blockers.
None of the known risks or side effects include cognitive impairment, you are attributing to puberty blockers changes to cognitive development without research demonstrating the causal link between limiting puberty hormones and decreased or slowed cognitive development like the known negative effects. I also wouldn’t accept increased cognitive development as a positive effect under puberty blockers without justification either. Until there is sufficient justification for either position we are not justified reaching either conclusion…
This is a fair point and I will admit I did not have any research in mind when I brought it up… however I believe it’s fair to say that of the research that has been done very little focuses on this specific application and it’s long term effects.
I am concerned there is and will be increased public resistance to what the medical consensus supports because of the political scapegoating trans people are under, and wonder if we were talking about transhumanism in general instead focused specifically on transgenderism would the resistance be the same.
I loathe politcs involving sexuality period. It’s one more way to splinter a community. We absolutely agree here.
The discussions you’ve mentioned would likely start with a child experiencing distress reported to an adult or their parents noticing their distress and working with a medical doctor to identify the causes and treatment plans to consider. In the cases where the distress is related to a lasting pattern of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity that is one of the criteria for prescribing puberty blockers.
While this is the case care should be given to how that information is interpreted. Toys, clothing choices, even colors can simply be a very neutral and innocent interest and may (from the child’s perspective) simply be something they enjoy. We as adults can overly assign meaning and weight to these choices which may impact the child’s perspective. Psychology in general can bandwagon quite a bit in this regard. I will say it has improved quite a bit but we’re all human. I digress. To your point I still believe that counseling is and should be the first step and medication should be (if used) used sparingly and ideally after some time has passed. I still firmly dislike the “it’s just a pause button” mentality people have. It’s far more complex than that- it needs to be respected as a weighty decision.
If they only knew what hormones do to adults, especially amongst athletes, the psychological changes you could face, including severe depression, anxiety, aggression, and sadly acts of violence and self unaliving. I can’t support messing with the natural course of hormones within children.
If you’re an adult, by all means, it’s your choice. You’ve experienced life long enough and should be able to decide what to do with yourself.
There are better ways to support a child struggling with their identity than affirming that they aren’t right and need drugs to fix themselves. It’s not meant that way but it’s certainly a perception that isn’t uncommon.
Delaying puberty and living as the opposite gender for a few years during childhood, isn’t permanent and can be fully reversed if the child changes their mind.
People like you, who keep insisting on correlating prepubescent children’s gender presentation with sexual behaviour, are the permantly damaging danger to these children.
If you ever feel like you’re going to harm a child because of these abhorrent sexual thoughts you’re having, go to a police station or a hospital and beg them to be locked up and medicated.
Or do the honourable thing and save everyone the harm of having to interact with a paedophile. Nobody of value wants people who sexualise and hurt children in their society.
What makes you think people are “forcing” them to do this?
You’ve now made it absolutely clear that you are just yet another anti-trans bigot who is pretending to want a conversation, but instead is just trying to weasel your abhorrent views into the public discourse.
You have failed, and everyone here sees through your bullshit.
You are what is wrong with discourse, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Side note to anyone else reading this: it’s SUPER easy to block people like this on lemmy and there really aren’t as many of these chodes as you’d think - I generally only have to block one or so a month and it makes things a whole lot less contentious once you realize you can just block people who are arguing that their hatred is somehow acceptable.
You’ve now made it absolutely clear that you are just yet another anti-trans bigot who is pretending to want a conversation, but instead is just trying to weasel your abhorrent views into the public discourse.
You appear to be assigning a whole lot of assumptions on me there with a ton of baseless claims. Calm the fuck down.
I can comprehend what you wrote perfectly well - I’m just verifying that you didn’t make an error in what you said.
Based on what you’ve called me, and insinuated what my stance was: I doubt that sincerely.
You have failed, and everyone here sees through your bullshit.
And yet others are having a perfectly reasonable conversation about the topic with me without coming to the utterly insane conclusions you have.
You are what is wrong with discourse, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
I am perfectly happy with my opinions and am willing to discuss them with others. I know it’s upsetting that my opinion differs from yours but that is no reason to kick and scream like a petulant child.
Side note to anyone else reading this: it’s SUPER easy to block people like this on lemmy and there really aren’t as many of these chodes as you’d think.
I disagree with this guy so fall in line because I said so.
As I said. Petulant child throwing a tantrum.
If someone is that simple minded that they would actually do that - I’m not sure their choice would register as a negative to me.
I don’t understand what is so reprehensible about trans kids being able to socially transition to live as their chosen gender? Social transition is clothing and behaviour, not surgical or medical. If the kid doesn’t like it, they tried it, found out for themselves, and can stop whenever they want.
And what is so evil about trans kids being able to choose to delay puberty till 18, so they can as legal adults, then decide if they want to safely medically and surgically transition, or not and go through the puberty of their birth gender?
Going through puberty in the wrong body causes unbelievable distress to many trans kids, leading to eating disorders, self harm, suicide, and a whole load of other awful mental and physical problems.
Why is safely alleviating harm to these children by allowing them to socially transition and delay puberty, a bad thing?
No trans child is getting surgery. Puberty blockers are safe and entierly reversible.
Gender affirming care has nothing to do with your disgusting paedophillic fantasies about children, and that you even correlate the two IS reprehensible and very telling of the type of person you are.
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Intersex children (born with undefined anatomy) get operated on at doctors discretion from their birth onwards, but this isn’t a conversation about that, however immoral and harrowing it is.
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They JUST told you, no one is advocating for surgeries in children. What they are advocating for is what has been done for ages - puberty blockers and therapy until they are of the age to make the decision for themselves.
You keep referring to “surgery” and now “chemical therapy” (I assume you mean hormones), but that’s not at all what is supposed to happen with children, it’s a straw man made up by by the right wing.
You say “it’s our job to give them time to grow into a decision or an identity before making a lasting choice” and that’s EXACTLY what’s been happening and is still under assault by these anti-trans laws that keep getting passed in the confederate states.
They don’t want them to exist so they are trying to legislate them away.
Blockers are still a change. Inhibiting your sexuality at that age drives a bigger rift between you and your peers. More so than feeling a bit different. I was blessed enough to grow up with a profoundly diverse group of friends and we supported each other regardless of our choices in sexuality as we grew into our identity. Choosing to deny a change may as well isolate them further.
To your point about state laws against trans rights there is a LOT to unpack there but I was very clear about my stance of protect and support but do not intervene (in development.)
What’s your source for this?
Also, I’m not sure I would describe someone going through this process as “feeling a bit different”.
The great thing about blockers is that you can stop them if they aren’t right for you.
Am I reading this correct that you seem to think that your “don’t let anyone take puberty blockers” stance is somehow protecting and supporting? And preventing others that from being able to do so is “not intervening”?
Growing up. Life experiences of myself and friends.
Kids are shitty and form cliques. Frequently. If your opinion or (perish the thought) your appearance were to differ - it makes you a far bigger target. Taking something to increase that difference will result in more of that behavior.
On blockers:
I won’t disagree that blockers are a gentler approach but they are not a magic bullet and do actually run the risk of lasting effects. Very little long term research has been done outside of animals and frankly I don’t think testing on children is the best way to go about it.
Much like steroids or any other drug you can absolutely stop if you don’t think it’s for you but what of the physical changes that occur in the meantime? Side effects are known and listed on even the mayo clinic website. Ill reiterate: why are we letting children take on these additional risks as if they don’t exist?
On your first point, does the evidence show that taking puberty blockers makes you more socially isolated? I have seen no evidence of that at all, and instead there’s a mountain of evidence that social transition and puberty blockers lower suicidality in trans kids and increase mental health outcomes.
We’ve been using puberty blockers, not just for trans kids but for precocious puberty for decades and have more than enough long term evidence of their effectiveness and safety. No drug or procedure is without risk, but why is that only a problem for this issue? Are you also against kids getting chemo? I mean, they certainly don’t fully understand the risks of chemo do they?
The question of consent and knowledge of risk is a red herring. Kids can’t consent to any medical procedures or sex because we’ve defined consent that way. But consent from the patient is not always needed for medical procedures, especially when the patient is unable to give consent. Should coma patients still get care that has risks? They can’t consent right?
Consent is given by the parents and the medical professionals who have the authority to make those decisions. You can ask the kid, and they usually do, but their consent does not matter. That’s how all medical procedures work with kids.
In reality, your statements lay bare a bias, which is why you’re getting downvoted. You only seem to care about risks and consent for this specific highly-politicized topic and not medical procedures broadly. Because this is not about a broad critique of consent, it’s about trying to excuse your uncomfortablity with this one subject and trying to justify it in any way you can.
You don’t have to understand it, and you don’t have to agree with it, but you should at least recognize why the majority of major medical institutions make the recommendations they do. And, shockingly, it’s not because they somehow forgot it was involving kids, it’s because they know a little more about the topic and nuances than you do.
Most of those tests you refer to also involve therapy / councilling in combination with the drugs and very few compare the two. Further there aren’t a ton of studies that involve blind tests and placebos. I’ll stress again that I am not against this therapy - I am against it so early in the adolescents development process.
Which is why it’s an allowed treatment, yes. But many drugs have multiple usages and in fact multiple doses which affects the end result. Dialing back an aggressive hormonal rush is a bit different than seeking to prevent it outright: which is the goal sought in this case. There are health risks to doing this and as I have asserted elsewhere: urgency is manufactured here. An adolescent needs to feel loved and supported at that stage- not like a mistake that needs immediate care.
This is why I made the example I did. They cannot provide consent (as it isn’t informed - even if it is explained to them.) This isn’t a life or death decision that needs to be made immediately. It involves the rest of that childs hopefully long life. I see no reason to rush into a decision involving drugs which may impact that. And this is, in fact, how most medical professionals should (and do) approach that.
Please detail how “too early for consent” somehow means “not at all”. That’s illogical. I support (as I have said multiple times) consentual therapy… but not that early. Consent should be given by the adolescent when they are legally and mentally capable of making such a choice. My statements and stance are very clear. If you disagree with it that’s perfectly fine. You are entitled to your opinion as well… but don’t go manufacturing some narrative as to what I believe or who I am.
I covered this above but most recommended therapy/counseling first then move onto drugs. I’m reasonably confident.
While on the topic of what professionals do: My family is littered with medical professionals ranging from people who develop drugs, work with children who need said drugs, are pediatricians and so on. It’s a long list. From the development side there are a number of educators as well. K-12, special needs… you name it. I personally travel between hospitals for work and rub elbows with some fantastically bright individuals in many fields. I suspect I may know a thing about what is recommended and how testing is done - but please explain it further to me if you feel I lack perspective.
Perhaps some of your preconceived notions about me may be changing? I am advocating for the child, the adolescent, the individual - who needs the proper care… rather than being part of the wailing masses too busy virtue signaling and brigadeing to actually discuss what is right rather than what feels good.
Don’t pull this shit again. You are against the use of puberty blockers because there would be no use for them after the person is done with puberty. You want them to wait until they are 18, when they are done with the vast majority of physical effects to start treatment. And the only reason you’ve given is “I just don’t think they need it yet, they need love not drugs.” Present evidence of harm or shut the fuck up. You’re fear-mongering over something you don’t understand and it has actual harm to other people.
If you think the use is so different that the dangers outweigh the risks then prove it. The institutions that study this don’t. The organizations that make policy based on those studies don’t. You don’t get to just “but it feels different” you have to provide evidence that it is different and harmful in a way the other studies wouldn’t have caught.
It’s “not at all” for puberty blockers because, again, you want kids to go through puberty before undergoing any gender therapy. If you had studied this at all you’d know why the medical organizations recommend starting before puberty. Puberty is the harm they are looking to alleviate and you can’t do that by waiting until after puberty to start treatment.
I’ll read your intentions as much as I want because you’re a fucking book. It’s easy to see exactly why you are here and making the arguments you are. Do you really think this is the first time most of us have seen a “just asking questions” and “this is pedophilia” argument? You don’t have to tell me you’re a duck, you already walked and talked like one.
I don’t give a fuck about your family or friends. Do you have a medical degree? Did you do any studies on this matter? Do you have any relevant training or expertise?
They are changing, but not in the way you think. I’ve read this book before, I know how it ends. That said, I’m enjoying wasting your time and calling you the bigot you are. I have a feeling you don’t hear that enough in your life so I’m happy to provide that for you.
You are advocating for your own feels. If you actually gave a flying fuck about the kids this affects you’d follow the recommendations of the people who actually studied this shit. Or at least present even one piece of evidence.
Puberty blockers are used after talking with a doctor and determining that the benefits of delaying puberty outweigh the potential risks. That’s how pretty much everything is prescribed for everyone, including children.
In a lot of these cases, the risk of not delaying puberty can include self-harm, suicide, adult gender dysphoria, less social acceptance as an adult, and being less satisfied with life as an adult.
It’s a balance. This isn’t a disease - many of the things you listed are psychological and the result of how family and friends treat that person. It’s not terribly different from someone starting to realize they may be gay, asexual, or any other of many non-typical alignments. We shouldn’t be so quick to push someone on the path for drugs when what they need is time and emotional support.
The DSM entry on Gender Dysphoria disagrees.
Boy wants to be a princess, obviously we should let him have sex.
You’re making a slippery slope argument
Puberty blockers should be allowed, not making a decision is still a decision
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Gender isn’t sexuality.
Do you seriously need someone to explain to you that you can make a decision on one thing and not a decision on another.
Abstractly explain how a child can make a decision on what to eat for dinner but not who they want to have sex with.
Alright so I’m happy to expand on this but you first: You have only said gender isn’t what I said it is. Go ahead and explain simply what you believe it is and what you perceive it’s purpose to be.
Your dinner statement is comparing apples and oranges but sure, I’ll bite:
A child hates brussel sprouts. They know this because they have had them and can form an informed decision based on their experiences. The first time at aunt Mary’s party they were bad but that was one time. Since then there have been multiple times of eating and disliking this food. They are sure they don’t like them. Experience helps form our decisions. I could continue but I trust you understand and can extrapolate from there.
I’m happy to continue this dialogue (on either front) but would like you to actually place your definitions and where you stand on the table first.
Point 1: gender is sexual
Gender is a social construct around behavioural and social traits, sexuality is who one is sexually attracted to, I honestly cannot see how you can correlate the two beyond “this gender is usually heterosexual”.
Point 2: children should not make puberty decisions unless they are mature, and to be mature they must go through puberty
If a child is mature enough to go through puberty, then they should be mature enough to make decisions about their puberty.
Why force someone to go through a puberty they hate, and only after they are finished and the changes become irreversible do you allow them to make a decision on how they wish to mature?
I understand this point of view because I used to also hold it, but I’m trying to express to you that forbidding puberty blockers causes the exact same problem, someone uninformed on a subject comes to regret their action (or inaction).
How about you use a fucking dictionary or the google button on your phone and look it up yourself.
Gender == sex == sexuality
Gender isn’t about who you sleep with, or what’s in your genes/jeans.
If you want to come here to convince people then do the leg-work yourself.
You opened the dialogue with me, friend. You asked me about my opinion and I explained it. I asked you for the same courtesy and you responded with that. Be civil.
I even made a pretty good example of that laughable comparison you asked me to. Rather pleased with it, tbh.
Now: If what you say is true then nobody would be needing reassignment therapy. It doesn’t matter who you sleep with or what’s in your pants after all.
Now we know that is not true and there is a difference between a man who is gay and a man who is transitioning to a woman. Further it is absolutely about sexuality. We are sexual beings. Our identity is tethered to it. That is the whole point of the transition. Becoming a ______ (who you believe yourself to be.)
Yes: relationships are not only sexual and can be formed for many reasons … but to say that it isn’t sexual nor tied to what is in your pants is simply incorrect or misinformed.
I didn’t ask you for anything and you didn’t explain anything to me. This was my first comment in this thread. Maybe take some time and see who you are responding to first?
You can shove your civility politics up your ass. Being civil doesn’t make it not bigoted and doesn’t make you right.
Since you are too lazy to look them up yourself and do the legwork, I’ll do it for you:
Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.
Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.
Sexuality is a person’s identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, etc.
If your definition is as broad as you imply, everything is your sexuality and therefore kids doing anything and having any options at all are sexual in nature. Your definition is useless.
No, in essence gender and sexuality are not the same and you seem to be saying they are. If after discussing with a doctor and parents or legal guardian if the best course of action is to prescribe puberty blockers so they can make an informed decision about hormones when 18 I see nothing wrong with that or equivalent to sexualizing children.
Alright so let’s follow this line of thought:
If puberty blockers inhibit hormones and hormones are responsible for the development of our brains and identity: how is hitting pause allowing for an informed decision?
I have more to say on this but I want to keep this discussion focused.
I’m going to need a source that puberty blockers have negative effects on cognitive development to accept that if. If puberty related hormones were necessary to consider someone an adult then people who are missing those hormones or puberty by mutation, disease, etc wouldn’t be considered adults which is not the case.
It prevents the acute release of puberty related hormones until they are old enough to be considered an adult under the law and able to make decisions about what they do or don’t consent to. The informed decision to prevent permanent changes by taking puberty blockers is made by a medical professional with parental or guardian consent to allow the child to mentally mature and make their own choice about taking hormones. One literary review notes the following positive and negative effects: "Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life. Adverse factors associated with use were changes in body composition, slow growth, decreased height velocity, decreased bone turnover, cost of drugs, and lack of insurance coverage. "
This is two different things. It’s a fairly well known fact that the maturation of the adolescent mind is during puberty… which is the result of the aforementioned chemicals. I’ll further that by saying if you acknowledge someone is chemically different - is stunting that change actually a good thing? The answer isn’t known. There are too few peer reviewed studies with sufficient data to provide a credible answer.
As far as considering adulthood - I’d suggest tabling that as it unwinds into some ugly side conversations all of which have validity … but doesn’t belong here. There is a reason we use age as a generic determinant… and that is tied to general brain maturity and experience.
This is the problem. (I’ve made this assertion elsewhere in this thread) Those hormones are responsible for more than just sexual development. We can’t actually pause our bodies. We are bypassing a part of the development phase and saying “see it started again” when in reality it was just continuing for the remaining period it was supposed to be active for. This has side effects. (which you noted- See the definitions and risks on the mayo clinic site.)
Physical implications aside… we get very chicken and egg here: So do the parents recognize the child is the wrong sex and bring them to the doctor … or the child says I’m the wrong sex and the aforementioned happens? Obviously the latter. Based on that the child is making the decision based on minimal experience and should be given counselling and time to make that decision as they develop. Your mention of self image and suicide is not uncommon amongst teens period. Providing guidance and understanding is how that is solved… but we as Americans are very good at throwing pills at that problem… and frequently do.
None of the known risks or side effects include cognitive impairment, you are attributing to puberty blockers changes to cognitive development without research demonstrating the causal link between limiting puberty hormones and decreased or slowed cognitive development like the known negative effects. I also wouldn’t accept increased cognitive development as a positive effect under puberty blockers without justification either. Until there is sufficient justification for either position we are not justified reaching either conclusion.
I am concerned there is and will be increased public resistance to what the medical consensus supports because of the political scapegoating trans people are under, and wonder if we were talking about transhumanism in general instead focused specifically on transgenderism would the resistance be the same.
The discussions you’ve mentioned would likely start with a child experiencing distress reported to an adult or their parents noticing their distress and working with a medical doctor to identify the causes and treatment plans to consider. In the cases where the distress is related to a lasting pattern of gender dysphoria or gender nonconformity that is one of the criteria for prescribing puberty blockers.
This is a fair point and I will admit I did not have any research in mind when I brought it up… however I believe it’s fair to say that of the research that has been done very little focuses on this specific application and it’s long term effects.
I loathe politcs involving sexuality period. It’s one more way to splinter a community. We absolutely agree here.
While this is the case care should be given to how that information is interpreted. Toys, clothing choices, even colors can simply be a very neutral and innocent interest and may (from the child’s perspective) simply be something they enjoy. We as adults can overly assign meaning and weight to these choices which may impact the child’s perspective. Psychology in general can bandwagon quite a bit in this regard. I will say it has improved quite a bit but we’re all human. I digress. To your point I still believe that counseling is and should be the first step and medication should be (if used) used sparingly and ideally after some time has passed. I still firmly dislike the “it’s just a pause button” mentality people have. It’s far more complex than that- it needs to be respected as a weighty decision.
If they only knew what hormones do to adults, especially amongst athletes, the psychological changes you could face, including severe depression, anxiety, aggression, and sadly acts of violence and self unaliving. I can’t support messing with the natural course of hormones within children.
If you’re an adult, by all means, it’s your choice. You’ve experienced life long enough and should be able to decide what to do with yourself.
There are better ways to support a child struggling with their identity than affirming that they aren’t right and need drugs to fix themselves. It’s not meant that way but it’s certainly a perception that isn’t uncommon.
Are you stupid or a paedophile?
Gender presentation isn’t sexual.
Delaying puberty and living as the opposite gender for a few years during childhood, isn’t permanent and can be fully reversed if the child changes their mind.
People like you, who keep insisting on correlating prepubescent children’s gender presentation with sexual behaviour, are the permantly damaging danger to these children.
If you ever feel like you’re going to harm a child because of these abhorrent sexual thoughts you’re having, go to a police station or a hospital and beg them to be locked up and medicated.
Or do the honourable thing and save everyone the harm of having to interact with a paedophile. Nobody of value wants people who sexualise and hurt children in their society.
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Why are you sexualising prepubescent children? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Alright I’ll play:
Why are you forcing prepubescent children to stay that way? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Am I doing it right?
If you cannot comprehend what I wrote then you clearly are either a child or have the mental capacity of one. I have no issue treating you as such.
What makes you think people are “forcing” them to do this?
You’ve now made it absolutely clear that you are just yet another anti-trans bigot who is pretending to want a conversation, but instead is just trying to weasel your abhorrent views into the public discourse.
You have failed, and everyone here sees through your bullshit.
You are what is wrong with discourse, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Side note to anyone else reading this: it’s SUPER easy to block people like this on lemmy and there really aren’t as many of these chodes as you’d think - I generally only have to block one or so a month and it makes things a whole lot less contentious once you realize you can just block people who are arguing that their hatred is somehow acceptable.
You appear to be assigning a whole lot of assumptions on me there with a ton of baseless claims. Calm the fuck down.
Based on what you’ve called me, and insinuated what my stance was: I doubt that sincerely.
And yet others are having a perfectly reasonable conversation about the topic with me without coming to the utterly insane conclusions you have.
I am perfectly happy with my opinions and am willing to discuss them with others. I know it’s upsetting that my opinion differs from yours but that is no reason to kick and scream like a petulant child.
I disagree with this guy so fall in line because I said so.
As I said. Petulant child throwing a tantrum.
If someone is that simple minded that they would actually do that - I’m not sure their choice would register as a negative to me.