Sorry. I know itās getting a bit annoying with all these posts obsessing over this subject but stillā¦
Just to make my position absolutely clear from the start of this - I think the entire fediverse should defed from anything under any form of commercial control, which clearly includes Threads (when/if it enables ActivityPub).
I see a lot of instance admins are adopting a āwait and seeā approach to defederating from Threads. With respect, Iād like to ask them - what are you waiting to see? Evidence that Meta is an immoral organisation? Surely you canāt be that naive?
Or is it evidence that Threads will attempt dodgy things with the ActivityPub codebase? That they will attempt Embrace-Extend-Extinguish? If thatās so, I again ask you with respect, surely you canāt be that naive? When Meta start introducing little, disarmingly helpful, tweaks to ActivityPub, will your āwait and seeā stance continue? And when Meta role out their own version of the protocol, urging Mastodon, Lemmy etc to adopt it - its free! Its better! - will you still continue to āwait and seeā?
The privacy thing I donāt feel is (currently) much of an issue. Meta could easily scrape all our data tomorrow if they felt like it. What I fear is privacy after theyāve introduced all their āimprovementsā to ActivityPub and released their own version. Maybe weāll end up with a two-state fediverse where one state is happy to federate with Meta and the other is not.
The fediverse was built on the principles of open standards and open source, by people, not commercial orgs. It is slow growing, slow to react and in some areas slow to change. These are, in my opinion, amongst its greatest strengths. There is no endless money pot provided by investors, admins are volunteers running instances on VPSās, software creators are people doing it as a hobby. This is people power, not money power. Thereās no profit motive. The second such a massive profit driven org gets a foothold - and is allowed to - that changes. Itās simply inevitable.
Is the fediverse perfect? Of course not. But I believe the problems it faces can be overcome with patience and persistent forward thinking.
Then there is the fact that some instances (and hopefully increasingly more) are seen as safe areas for gay people, trans people, non-white people, women. Opening the door to Meta means opening the door to a whole shit storm of awful people whom we currently donāt have the tools to protect communities from. Is āwait and seeā really a good idea given the fact this almost certainly will happen? I mean āwait and seeā what exactly? And yes, I know we have our home-grown awful people here and guess what? We struggle to contain them already! Threads got more signups in the first 12 hours of its existence than the entire current population of the whole fediverse. You want to āwait and seeā how many of those people are cunts? Because the answer is āa lotā.
The fact is - the fediverse doesnāt need Threads, or any corporate involvement. Yes, its already smaller than Threads, itās smaller than Twitter, itās smaller than Reddit. But, at the risk of leaving myself open to obvious jokes, why does size matter? Thereās already, in my opinion, enough people throughout the fediverse, esp on Mastodon and Lemmy, to have created places where their is good, lively, vibrant discourse. Iād much rather have quality over quantity. Thereās nothing actually wrong with slower, more manageable growth. Weāve all got sucked into believing the bigger something is the better it must be and that unchecked growth is healthy. If weāre growing uh, āhouse plantsā then that might be the case, but weāre not. Because the fediverse is not (currently) motivated by profit, we donāt need unchecked growth. Iāve seen so many reddit refugees recently talking about how much better the āfeelā is on Lemmy, how much less pressure and angst and nastiness there is. I canāt think of a single scenario in which instantly adding double the amount of people, some of whom are pretty terrible, without decent tools to manage them, all operating under the control of a company known to embrace/extend/extinguish and whoās sole motivation is profit at all costs can be beneficial to the fediverse.
I think you need to open your eyes as to the real reason why Threads exists. Instead of baseless claims, letās use a source, shall we?
Itās obvious why Facebook would want to make a Twitter clone. But the Digital Markets Act is likely why that clone uses ActivityPub: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en
The interoperability is the big one. Being federated means that Threads isnāt considered a āgatekeeper platformā. I wouldnāt be surprised if Instagram and maybe even Facebook itself start to federate as well. Since Threads isnāt currently connected to the wider fediverse, thatās probably why theyāre not in the EU yet - because itās currently in violation of the Digital Markets Act.
This also means that fears of āEmbrace, Extend, Extinguishā are likely overblown and FUD. Breaking ActivityPub interoperability means that theyād be a gatekeeper again and subject to EU regulations against gatekeepers.
Iām not saying Facebook is innocent. But I think people are so paranoid about things like EEE when there is clear evidence that EEE is not in Facebookās best interest.
We want the fediverse to be a ānormalā thing. Heck, we should get as many corporations as possible onboard, because then fears of EEE go out the window entirely. Thatās how other protocols like Matter work - a bunch of corporations work with an open entity to decide collectively how the protocol should work.
And, if you pay attention, the web - and specifically Facebook - has been using open protocols like those for years without issue. Many of these open protocols the web uses were made by Facebook. Some examples:
React is a JavaScript library that was created by Facebook.
It makes webpages pretty, basically. It makes things load really really fast while still looking clean and modern.
Dropbox, Paypal, Discord, Slack, Netflix, AirBnB all use React.
HHVM was created by Facebook.
HHVM is what executes the Hack programming language (also made by Facebook). Hack is based on PHP (the same thing Kbin runs on), but is optimized in a different way and is more flexible than traditional PHP.
Slack and Wikipedia are the biggest users of HHVM.
Cassandra was created by Facebook.
Cassandra works basically as an alternative to MySQL. It does much of the same job, but works a bit better making sure thereās no single point of failure.
Uber, Netflix, Reddit, Spotify, and Twitter all use Cassandra.
Thrift was created by Facebook.
It connects programs that were created using different programming languages. They can all share a data format through Thrift, which lets them talk to each other.
Thrift is used by Netflix, Evernote, Twitter, Uber, and reCAPTCHA.
Literally you could not use the modern web without using these technologies. Iām leaving 5-6 more out for space constraints. Meta has a loud voice in most of those techs, and outright controls a handful of them. Thatās been the case for most of the 2010s into the 2020s.
I wouldnāt say I trust Facebook with the fediverse. But Iām also not so quick to jump to EEE because they do have a fairly solid track record when it comes to web tech.
And I donāt think āthis isnāt a place for normies, normies go home!!!ā is a winning proposition to make sure the fediverse becomes big enough that EEE isnāt an issue. We want widespread adoption. Smaller instances will always exist, and if thatās what you want you should join an explicitly small instance like Beehaw. Let the bigger instances federate and be federated with. Stop spreading baseless FUD.
Well, I donāt use any of those apps you just listed because, like Meta, theyāre all privacy invading nightmares. And yet here I am using āthe modern webā. If you genuinely believe they have a solid record when it comes to web tech then - well, youāre entitled to that opinion, but I donāt share it. I think they have an awful record, in that their tech works, but it doesnāt result in products that make the web better.
Itās hardly baseless FUD to suggest Meta might utilise EEE as a growth mechanism when theyāve actually participated in doing exactly that in the past.
And the reason Threads isnāt available in the EU is partly the reason you suggest but also in large part because of data privacy concerns. The EU knows full well thatās Metaās business model. Hoover up peoples personal data and sell it on.
You also seem to be struggling with what EEE actually means. The āextendā part of that entails rolling out a modified, non-standard version of the protocol which better serves their interests but is still technically able to federate with other systems. The āextinguishā part is the years-later death of the original protocol.
āthis isnāt a place for normies, normies go home!!!ā - who suggested that? What I actually said was pretty much the opposite of that. Iād love to see open protocol based apps become standard. You, on the other hand, seem to want tighter and tighter ties between corporations and standards. Thatās the kind of thinking the led to this absolute shit-show of data harvesting companies and ad-stuffed apps thatās currently the norm.
Not wanting to embrace a āgrowth at all costs, commercialism is our saviourā attitude is not the same as saying ānormies go homeā.
Are you really saying you donāt use PayPal? I presume you have a job; your job probably uses Slack (or Teams) at the corporate level. Youāre never streamed anything? Youāre not coming from Reddit? You donāt use Wikipedia? Or Spotify? Or reCAPTCHA?
I most sincerely doubt that youāve never used any of those, all of which run on tech that Facebook built and helps maintain. And Iām not even mentioning the countless small places that use things like React. Iām not joking when I say you literally cannot use the modern web without bumping into a website running React, which was - again - created by Facebook.
Maybe you think the things I mentioned are āappsā - theyāre not, to be clear. Theyāre frameworks. You generally have no idea youāre using them, because itās something that gets setup by the folks building the website. You donāt directly download React.js; you go to Discord.gg and Discord will download React to your machine and run it to display Discord. Same thing with Wikipedia - you go to Wikipedia, it uses HHVM to show you the page you want.
If you knew all that already and still think you donāt use tech run by Facebook, then your ignorance of how the web works is shocking.
I also think youāre struggling with the concept of āMeta doesnāt want the EU to come down on them.ā They will never extend the network in a way that breaks apps, and they canāt extinguish it because both of those would make them āgatekeepersā under EU law - the thing theyāre trying to avoid.
You have to understand that - as much as I dislike capitalism - it is what drives consumers. Linux is the better OS than Windows. Thatās proven by basically everything running Linuxā¦ except consumer PCs, which are usually Macs or Windows. Because Linux doesnāt advertise itself like they do, not really.
The way for the fediverse to grow is to get corporations to embrace it. The more corporations that embrace it, the less likely it is that any individual corpo can extend/extinguish (assuming they ignore the EU for some reason). Corporations means regular users, and regular users means normalization, which means a healthy and growing fediverse.
Rather than trying to get a big place to reject this at all cost, maybe you should move to a small place like Beehaw that will more readily accept your worldview.
I donāt use PayPal, no. I donāt use Slack or Teams. I donāt use the Reddit app, I donāt use Twitter, I donāt use Spotify etc etc etcā¦really not sure whats difficult for you to grasp about any of that but feel free to doubt whatever you like. I know exactly what react is. I prefer to use vue myself. I use privacy respecting front ends for places like Wikipedia etc. Iām sure Iāve occasionally used something thatās powered by React but I try and avoid shitware generally.
You need to re-read what I wrote about EEE because you still donāt understand it. You also need to look into their history.
āas much as I donāt like capitalismā uh-huh, its obvious you loathe capitalism my friend, in the same way rampant closeted homophobes hate gay men.
Your point about Linux is facile and shows little to no understanding of the history of its development or why its āadvertisingā is the way it is. Its the same reason you keep banging on about āembrace the corporations!ā - you just canāt fathom the idea of creating something out of love and enjoyment for people to use freely. Thatās not success to you. Success isnāt success until it experiences uncontrolled growth, complete with marketing drives and shareholder options.
We have different viewpoints Elon. Move on.
āI know exactly what React is, I prefer to use Vueā shows you literally have zero clue what React is.
You donāt choose when you visit a website. Thereās no option that says ārender this with Vue.ā Itās handled by the website itself. Lemmy uses Inferno instead of React, for example. You didnāt make that choice, and I highly doubt you chose Lemmy because researched that beforehand. And if you did, by going to Lemmyās GitHub pageā¦ surprise! GitHub uses React!
I think you need to take a history lesson on the web. I gave multiple examples of tech Facebook has backed, and yet EEE hasnāt happened to any of them. There are more open techs that Facebook has contributed code to; a lot of Apache projects, for example. And yet no EEE. Curious. Also I noticed youāre avoiding the āEU will come down on Facebook if they get out of lineā side of my argument. Also curious.
But I suppose thatās not a surprise. Itās clear you have no idea how things even work; you probably googled (oh, wait, you probably donāt use Google) āReact replacementā to find Vue at all. You probably didnāt know Vue was created by a Google engineer and Google uses it internally. I suggest you change what web framework you use, if you have that magic button tucked away. Maybe switch to Inferno?
Not to mention you say you never used the Reddit app. I never said anything about the Reddit app. I was talking about the Reddit website. Unless youāve never used the Reddit website, either? I trust youāre going to say youāve never owned anything but a flip phone and do web searches with a phone book next.
You conclude by making a strawman and putting words in my mouth that I never said. You think if I loved corporations I would be here? But youāve made multiple factual inaccuracies, you never source anything you say, you just constantly pout like the world is ending and try to force everyone else to do things your way.
But youāre right. We do have different viewpoints. I suggest you stop spreading yours as factual, or use that phone book to find sources.
(And for the record, I despise Elon.)
āshows you literally have zero clue what React isā
To develop stuff my friend. How did you not grasp that?
" surprise! GitHub uses React!"
Uh-huh and as I said, Iām sure Iāve used React occasionally I just tend to avoid it if possible.
āI think you need to take a history lesson on the web. I gave multiple examples of tech Facebook has backed, and yet EEE hasnāt happened to any of them.ā
And yet, some it has. You seem unable to parse that.
āAlso I noticed youāre avoiding the āEU will come down on Facebook if they get out of lineā side of my argument. Also curious.ā
Not quite what you said. You said the EU will penalise Meta if they donāt federate. All they have to do to avoid that is create a protocol that ensures they can technically achieve that, doesnāt have to be the actual ActivityPub protocol. Thatās literally how EEE works. I avoided that so much I only mentioned it twice before.
'oh, wait, you probably donāt use Google) ā
True, I donāt. I use Whoogle. Open source, privacy respecting front end - Iād advise you check it out but youād probably want to buy it because you think thats how open source software gets better.
āYou probably didnāt know Vue was created by a Google engineer and Google uses it internallyā
No, I do know all that. Not really sure what difference any of that makes though.
'Not to mention you say you never used the Reddit app. I never said anything about the Reddit app. I was talking about the Reddit website. ā
Yep, I use the site. I check out the sub I mod using an open source, privacy respecting front end. If thereās anything untoward, I login via the site in a Firefox containerised tab with UBO enabled.
āBut youāve made multiple factual inaccuraciesā
Go right ahead and quote them.
āyou never source anything you say, you just constantly pout like the world is ending and try to force everyone else to do things your way.ā
Well, sorry about all the pouting and Iām sorry to disappoint but I have no interest in forcing anyone to do anything. I say my piece, people can take it or leave it.
ā I suggest you stop spreading yours as factual,ā
What have I stated as being factual that isnāt factual? Are you sure youāre not mixing up āhaving an opinion on what might happenā with āclaiming something as factā?
ā(And for the record, I despise Elon.)ā
Sorry Zuck, didnāt realise it was you.