- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
âAs soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; theyâre shuffling in their seats.â Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, âI can see them look at me, like, âI used to like you.ââ
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
âA lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,â he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a âdominance-based modelâ of masculinity. âThese old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers â your grifters, like Andrew Tate.â
Are they though? Iâve never seen any evidence of feminists reining in their fellow feminists
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Thank you! Looking through them now.
Can you name the actual feminist(s) which youâre referring toâŠ? You wonât really see feminists doing feminist things if youâre not going out of your way to participate in the feminist movement. Iâm pretty sure most peopleâs entire idea of âfeminismâ is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming âkill all menâ or something.
Feminism isnât about âmen bad, women goodâ or âwomen need to be more privileged in societyâ, itâs about minimizing or erasing gender norms/stereotypes, even if those perceptions sometimes benefit women. Gender/sexual equality is the point of the movement, it recognizes that women are favoured by the judicial system when it comes to cases related to violence & domestic disputes, and that society thinks that men should be big and strong and scary and that society shuns men who face problems in life or are wronged as âweakâ, and that young people (especially men) are lonely, and that women are unlikely to receive as much benefit from the same labour (e.g., promotions/raises, perceived expertise) compared to men, etc. etc.
And the movement recognizes that those problems are often mostly or entirely caused by fucked up perceptions about gender that our society has built over an inconceivably large amount of time, and that we still apply to the modern day, that women are weak and beautiful and pure and dumb and dependent and subordinate to men and nurturing and need to be protected, and that men are strong and smart and do all the dirty work and independent and providing and commanding and need to protect women. That women and men are treated certain ways in some areas and get certain privileges over the other because of the way society views the concept of/separation between âmanâ and âwomanâ (and pushes against the view or âneither man or womanâ) in the first place.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about âwe need to make men 2nd-class citizensâ, rather than âthese artificially constructed and inaccurate ideas of differences between men and women are harmful to society and cause us to force certain perceptions on people, making us be biased against a certain gender in many areas or shun those of a certain gender who donât fit into certain stereotypesâ. Also some people donât really care either way and want to be mad, but that happens with everything.
Another thing that is always spammed every time anything related to womenâs struggles or just general womenâs rights (even if feminism isnât mentioned) is âbut what about men?â which is ignoring the entire point⊠weâre in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues, even gender issues, and not be out to try to 1-up each other every time one of the âotherâ groups have their issues talked about. And we can recognize that women often face issues men donât face as much, and men often face issues that women donât face as much, and we can recognize that often times the difference of magnitude of struggles based on gender is caused by the fact that society treats different genders so irrationally different in the first place.
Some want to throw away the concept of âfeminismâ/âgender & sexuality equalityâ and instead exclusively use âegalitarianismâ, but I think thatâs kind of just trying to detract from the issue and is as absurd as saying we shouldnât think about âracial equalityâ as its own concept either, and saying âwomen have all the rights men have, but theyâre just greedy and want moreâ is as dumb as saying âracial minorities have all the rights that white people have, but theyâre just greedy and want moreâ. Also because of this exact idea the term âegalitarianismâ is generally associated with libertarians which is just⊠eugh⊠no thanks.
BTW this is tangential to the topic, but when people say âtoxic masculinityâ or âpatriarchyâ the idea isnât that itâs mens fault and everything would be so much better if they just drop their toxicity and masculinity. Itâs more generally referring to how historically, in societies where men were at the âtopâ of the social hierarchy, created were the perceptions that men are supposed to be a certain way, and that women are supposed to be a certain other way, based entirely around the most idolized men of the times having certain characteristics/powers that dictated their place in society. These ideas still, for the most part, persist to the modern day in an altered & tamer form, and they still affect how all of us who are raised in these cultures perceive gender identity. Thatâs why itâs said men are victims of âpatriarchyâ or âtoxic masculinityâ too, because modern gender perceptions/issues are tightly tied to where they originated, and those societal/governmental structures are still âhereâ in a very warped but slightly recognizable form.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
I just want to quickly clarify thatâs not what I think. I donât think feminism as a whole is about putting men down, and thatâs a hilariously egocentric viewpoint to have anywayâŠyeah this whole giant movement that says itâs about women is actually about menâŠcome on bro get over yourself lol.
I think feminism is about raising women up. It just doesnât have any mechanism to (1) say âhey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!â (college admissions for example), (2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example), or (3) address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
This is the WHOLE POINT of âwhat about men?â Feminists do not care about male struggles. And Iâm not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I donât know what they think because it doesnât matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little. Weâre really fucking struggling and could use a hand here. Not asking for a lot, just a little acknowledgement and appreciation and maybe a policy initiative here and there.
The entirety of the internet is putting people in check. You donât even have to go to specific feminists to see it, any times a misandrist freak-out goes viral thereâs immediately a visceral reaction to it by even the âwokeâ parts of the internet and a bunch of feminists being like âyea s/heâs not one of usâ. Anyone can call themselves anything, and every movement has radicals, but every feminist knows that those radicals are a joke and just easy bait for anti-feminist rhetoric.
Jesus christ you really did filter out literally everything you just read didnât you⊠every time âfeminismâ comes up itâs literally feminists telling you âitâs not just about womenâ but people like you just completely ignore it. What entity exactly is âthis whole giant movementâ thatâs saying itâs about women? I explained where the gendered terms of the movement come from, the historical reasons why theyâre called that, so I would hope youâre not just taking the name at face value. There is literally not a singular feminist that says âyeah this movement isnât about men at all, we only care about womenâ. Many issues in this world primarily screw over women though, and those are often talked about, which I assume is where your confusion comes from.
What is this even supposed to mean? You think feminists arenât happy and donât take pride in when a goal like more equal treatment in something based on gender or sexual orientation is achieved? That literally proves that you donât actually pay attention to anything that has to do with the movement and youâre just making rage up lol.
Except they do. Literally one of the most important parts of the feminist movement is encouraging people to pursue career choices that societal perceptions discourage a specific gender from doing. Especially when it comes to dirty, dangerous, physical jobs. Do you know just how much women working trades/physical labour is talked about in various feminist groups? It is one of the primary workplace issues, generally women are completely bullied out of working such jobs and are seen as âincompetentâ when it comes to professions like welders, mechanics, electricians, or any other form of physically demanding jobs. I have witnessed this firsthand, as well as my former best friend literally being a welder and constantly describing how awful women are treated by the people working these jobs, how theyâre constantly sexualized/objectified and harassed, how they have to always be afraid in their own workplace because of this. This is one of the most important things feminists are actively working on, equalizing trades and making it so both men and women are treated fairly and well. Feminism is also often intertwined with workerâs rights, guarantees to employees, safety in the workplace, etc. which fits into this excelently.
What? Iâm mentally facepalming right now⊠feminists are constantly encouraging positive role models, educators, leaders, etc. for everyone (including men), what are you on about? Additionally one of feministsâ primary concerns is access to healthcare, and especially relating to feministsâ concerns is mental healthcare, something that affects men a lot. They recognize what causes many of these problems, and they work to fix them. Feminists fight against negative influences like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.
Many role models for men were/are feminists, and feminists actively are engaged in propping boys up and encouraging positive traits in them (as well as girls). I think one everyone can relate to hearing is Mr. Rogers.
It really is not. The point is to say âwomenâs issues donât matter because men also have other issuesâ. It is a way to detract from any discussion about womenâs rights, to try to take over the conversation to say âwe have it worse in some different wayâ, to try to emphasize the idea they have that women are privileged and men are the ones that really have it bad. It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
You are straight up just constructing a strawman and beating it to death. What feminist discussions have you attended? Any at all?
That is quite literally what we are trying to do. But people like you refuse it and try to turn it around as a way to disparage other groups and diminish discussions about womenâs struggles and gender in society. And you make strawmen constructed of some 2014 internet perception of a âfeministâ pretending feminists actually believe in that, meanwhile âmenâs rights activistsâ/anti-feminists are represented by literal far-right sex traffickers (as opposed to the many positive role models who are feminists). Like can you name any popular, modern-day, prominent-among-feminist influencers that are even a small fraction of the absurdity of that? Feminist role model influencers are random often apolitical chill people like Technoblade
lmao.
Yeah Iâm just gonna call you a liar. All youâre doing is saying âoh yeah weâre totally working on thatâ but thatâs just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define menâs issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying âbut what about menâ has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, Iâve never even HEARD of anything like that. And Iâve gone looking.
Okay, youâre just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you donât like but Iâll give you what you want.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like âyeah but what about these other issues I faceâ. Youâre honestly telling me you think someone who just says âoh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? thatâs bad, if not worse, and iâm tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my armâ is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss menâs issues?
I donât know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing womenâs struggles with âbut what about men who have X badâ it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say âIâm not a woman but hereâs my perspective as a man whoâs faced similar issuesâ, who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as menâs problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for menâs problems and try to say âwell actually women are privilegedâ to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender â most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say âbut loneliness isnât just a menâs thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!â yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time womenâs issues get brought up.
Yeah this is how I know youâre talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless Iâll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers/diversity-equity-inclusion-accessibility/women-in-apprenticeship#:~:text=The U.S. Department of Labor's Women's Bureau has awarded %247.4,as well as nontraditional occupations.
âThe U.S. Department of Laborâs Womenâs Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations.â
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-06-01/constructing-a-place-for-women-in-the-skilled-trades
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2018/08/28/how-to-help-women-sustain-careers-in-male-dominated-spaces/
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), hereâs a list:
https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarships-by-type/scholarships-for-men/
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they donât. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so itâs the other way around. Menâs college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists arenât very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US⊠but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Lmao you obviously havenât. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
âŠyeah, at least some of the time. Is that so hard to believe? We have whole specialist medical centers dedicated to broken legs but not a single broken arm specialist. Yeah, usually setting a broken arm isnât that difficult, but sometimes it is, and we donât have anyone to help.
True, and for that reason I understand your frustration. It does happen a lot, and thereâs a lot of shitty incel types out there eager to disrupt a good faith conversation. But this isnât a topic about women. This is explicitly a topic about how men view feminism. Iâm not going off-subject or derailing here: this is the subject.
Dude I WORK IN THE TRADES, I think I might have a better view of it than you. Been a blue collar laborer all my life, and I donât recall ever seeing a jobs program for women that wasnât geared towards something white-collar, even if it may nominally interact with blue collar labor sectors. In any case, you linked a few government diversity initiatives, which is nice, not really doing much, but nice.
None of it is feminists.Actually, Iâve thought about this a bit more, and I think itâs fair to assume that the US DoL Womenâs Bureau contains a lot of feminists and uses feminist ideology in its policies. I still maintain that itâs not doing much and itâs not something that feminists give much thought to. But Iâll concede itâs on the radar. I was not aware of this or similar programs. Maybe if we 100x them we could start to address inequality in the trades.I wouldnât say itâs âoverwhelmingly positiveâ, though there is much more support of the idea than I was expecting. This thread is a counter-example. This response strikes me as particularly honest and self-reflectiveâŠitâs not malicious, per se, itâs just indifference.
Okay, thereâs a gazillion small scholarships out there, statistically some of them will be for men. Thatâs not what I meant. I meant an organized, concerted, well-funded effort to increase college participation rates by men by offering scholarships.
No, Iâm sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the gender gap in college enrollment, not any gap in cost. Scholarships were just the first tool that came to mind that could be theoretically used to increase male college enrollment.
Tell Dworkin that. She might come out of the grave to fight you on that point.