Secret Service agents protecting President Joe Biden’s granddaughter have opened fire after three people tried to break into an unmarked Secret Service vehicle in Washington.
Are you from the US? I’m assuming not. I mean no offense by this.
What most people from other places don’t recognize is that the US is in effect 50 different countries. Each state has their own regulations, that in some cases are wildly different from the next.
That applies to gun laws also.
So it’s most incorrect to say ‘we tried nothing and it didn’t work’, when in reality we’ve tried 50 different things. That is the beauty of your link, if you look at the state by state data. There’s 50 different visions of what gun policy should be, and 50 different outcomes. And this really does run the gamut. There are a few national-level laws, for example every gun store purchase must have a background check, and some case law that has defined what the government can and can’t do to regulate, but for the most part it’s up to each state to write their own policy.
In DC for example, you had a scheme that would fit in well anywhere in Europe- you need training and licensing to even get a permit to buy a gun, each gun has to be registered and test-fired before it can be delivered to the buyer. From beginning to end the process of buying a gun (which you couldn’t even carry) took months and a dozen visits to various government agencies. I’ve heard it’s since gotten a bit less strict, but it was like that for a LONG time.
DC has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation and has for a very long time.
Hawaii has gun control that’s similarly strict, and has among the lowest gun homicide rate in the nation.
In Vermont for example you have what everyone accuses the entire USA of having- anyone can buy as many guns as they want with no training or licensing, and you can carry your gun loaded without a permit or proof of training. This is sometimes called ‘Constitutional Carry’ (the Constitution is your carry permit). Buying a gun is easy, other than the Federally-mandated background check, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in less than an hour.
Vermont has among the highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest gun homicide rate.
Alaska is similar to Vermont (Constitutional Carry, high gun ownership rate) but among the highest gun homicide rate.
What those 4 states should tell you, is that gun policy or gun ownership rate are not necessarily drivers of gun homicide rate. Something else is going on that drives gun homicide rate.
So’s the E.U. they got it to work. The excuses Americans will make for allowing themselves to ignore the dead kid problem is astounding. And you’re right, there is more that drives homicide rate, like lack of social services, 10% of your population living without food security on an annual basis, 54% of your adult population reading below a 6th grade literacy level, there’s a lot of big problems and you aren’t fixing any of them.
And you’re right, there is more that drives homicide rate, like lack of social services, 10% of your population living without food security on an annual basis, 54% of your adult population reading below a 6th grade literacy level, there’s a lot of big problems and you aren’t fixing any of them.
And on this I am in 100% agreement. It’s fucking shameful that we don’t take care of our own people. But our government spends money it doesn’t have like there’s no tomorrow; our military is bigger than the next 10 in the world combined (including all of our enemies) and we continue to fund it at absurd rates, we have billions of $ worth of domestic spying invading our privacy. And while we fight over whether we protect kids with more guns or less guns, we then throw them in schools where teachers are barely able to scrape by, send them into a cutthroat society where corporations fuck over the employees with no remorse, and where if you’re not rich you probably can’t afford much in the way of decent health care.
Quite frankly it’s shameful. It’s appalling. If it or any part of it was imposed upon us by force by another nation, we’d all go to war and support using nukes against them. But we do it to ourselves so we smile and nod and say ‘oh he got cancer and went bankrupt and couldn’t afford treatment and died’ like that’s the way things are supposed to be.
And then in our politics we fight over should we elect this loser or that psycho, should we have more guns or less guns, should we have more immigration or more border security, meanwhile upward mobility is down, quality of life is down, the wealth of the nation is being extracted by big companies, and we’re too distracted by random shit to fix the underlying problems.
So if you think I’m one of the ‘Murica, fuck yeah!’ people, I’m not. I love my country and I’m proud to be American, but I’m not proud of what my nation has become lately.
So’s the E.U. they got it to work. The excuses Americans will make for allowing themselves to ignore the dead kid problem is astounding.
I would agree with this, but it’s not about guns (especially since most of those kids are shot with illegal guns by people who can’t legally own guns).
The problem is poverty. And we do fuck all about that.
No, it’s “not about guns”. We still have guns, I have friends who have guns, I’ve shot and hunted. It’s about having the adequate systems in place for BEFORE people get the guns. And yes there are lots of guns already, but not putting in limitations won’t make that number drop will it? Not trying voluntary buy-backs won’t get unwanted guns out of normal citizens homes. Not having adequate food, wealth, and access to education isn’t going to reduce the amount of crime that scared regular Americans into thinking they need emotional support weapons. Just do something, fucking anything. It’s not that nothing works, it’s that you refuse to try what works elsewhere because you’ve been fooled into thinking you’re special individual snowflakes, but your ravenous individuality has eroded any capacity you have for co-operation with your fellow Americans in securing your right to live.
There’s 500 million legal privately owned guns in the US. If you assume an average value of $450, that’s $225 billion.
If I had $225 billion to spend, I sure as fuck wouldn’t spend it buying back guns. I’d fund mental health care, I’d fund education, I’d fund jobs programs.
Not trying voluntary buy-backs
These DO happen in a lot of places, on a local or state level. Doesn’t have much effect because the people who commit the crimes are the ones with illegal guns who aren’t gonna sell them.
you refuse to try what works
We are stupid in that we refuse to try things like single payer health care.
But I suspect almost any gun policy you’d come up with has been tried somewhere in the USA.
What you’re really missing is there are two kinds of gun owners in USA- law-abiding and criminal. The law-abiding ones aren’t committing most of the gun crime. Look at the stats for defensive gun use (when a law-abiding person uses a legal gun to stop or prevent a crime)- they aren’t tracked by government so the data has to come from statistical surveys, but even the anti-gun people agree that DGUs happen 5-6x more often than firearm homicide.
Most DGUs end with no shots fired- criminal sees gun and runs away.
It’s not that nothing works, it’s that you refuse to try what works elsewhere because you’ve been fooled into thinking you’re special individual snowflakes, but your ravenous individuality has eroded any capacity you have for co-operation with your fellow Americans in securing your right to live.
And with respect, this is a totally ignorant comment that’s based on an anti-gun talking point and not any actual knowledge of American gun policy, gun ownership culture, stated reasons for owning guns, or anything other than conjecture and accusation.
You say ‘try what works’ (presumably referring to European-style gun control) but show no concept of understanding how truly difficult (damn near impossible) it would be to implement, even if a majority of the nation wanted it (which they don’t). And you ignore the fact that much of what you call ‘what works’ HAS been tried, or is currently being tried.
I don’t mean to insult you or personally attack you. But the fact is your accusations show little understanding of the REALITY of American gun ownership, why Americans buy and own guns, and what they do with them.
I’m happy to share what I know. But if your mind is concluded and closed, if you’ve just decided ‘Americans are ammosexual hicks who refuse to give up their penis extenders to keep their own kids safe’ and you are not open to even entertaining the possibility that reality is much more complex than that, then there’s nothing I or anyone else can say.
If you want to understand, at least from one American’s POV, like I said I’m happy to share. And IMHO it’s fascinating- I wasn’t always pro-gun, I wasn’t raised around guns or gun culture, so what I know comes from my own independent research without most of the emotion you see in many gun arguments.
So my friend, can you try an open mind?
Boohoo, gun control is hard so we aren’t gonna do it. Dead kids just gonna keep piling up till you do. Stop killing kids with your emotional support weapons you fucking cowards. How about that for opening your goddamned mind, or is the only mind opening you know the sort that happens with lead in American schools.
I don’t believe you’re reading anything I write with an open mind or good faith.
I’ve tried to explain that we HAVE tried, we DO try, almost any gun control you might propose either exist in one state or another or has been tried at some poine.
It sounds like your approach is either ‘do exactly what we do the way we do it or you’re wrong’.
I’m happy to debate in good faith, but that requires you to read and address what I write rather than just throw insults and restate the same points you’ve already said (which I’ve already addressed).
I don’t believe your populace has done anything significant otherwise there’d be significant change. Actions speak louder than words. Have fun burying your babies.
I believe in the scientific method- test your theory and others, then go by what works and stop doing what doesn’t. Do you generally agree with this?
If you do, then how do you explain the fact that on your own link the state by state data shows little correlation between anti-gun policies in a state and low rates of gun homicide in the state?
If taking serious anti-gun action would actually reduce gun homicide, wouldn’t you expect states like DC and IL (which have strong gun control) to have less gun homicide, and states like VT, NH and UT (which have little or no gun control other than the federal minimum requirements) to have more gun homicide?
It seems to me that the policy YOU advocate isn’t having a demonstrably positive effect. How do you explain that?
Are you from the US? I’m assuming not. I mean no offense by this.
What most people from other places don’t recognize is that the US is in effect 50 different countries. Each state has their own regulations, that in some cases are wildly different from the next.
That applies to gun laws also.
So it’s most incorrect to say ‘we tried nothing and it didn’t work’, when in reality we’ve tried 50 different things. That is the beauty of your link, if you look at the state by state data. There’s 50 different visions of what gun policy should be, and 50 different outcomes. And this really does run the gamut. There are a few national-level laws, for example every gun store purchase must have a background check, and some case law that has defined what the government can and can’t do to regulate, but for the most part it’s up to each state to write their own policy.
In DC for example, you had a scheme that would fit in well anywhere in Europe- you need training and licensing to even get a permit to buy a gun, each gun has to be registered and test-fired before it can be delivered to the buyer. From beginning to end the process of buying a gun (which you couldn’t even carry) took months and a dozen visits to various government agencies. I’ve heard it’s since gotten a bit less strict, but it was like that for a LONG time.
DC has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation and has for a very long time.
Hawaii has gun control that’s similarly strict, and has among the lowest gun homicide rate in the nation.
In Vermont for example you have what everyone accuses the entire USA of having- anyone can buy as many guns as they want with no training or licensing, and you can carry your gun loaded without a permit or proof of training. This is sometimes called ‘Constitutional Carry’ (the Constitution is your carry permit). Buying a gun is easy, other than the Federally-mandated background check, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in less than an hour.
Vermont has among the highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest gun homicide rate.
Alaska is similar to Vermont (Constitutional Carry, high gun ownership rate) but among the highest gun homicide rate.
What those 4 states should tell you, is that gun policy or gun ownership rate are not necessarily drivers of gun homicide rate. Something else is going on that drives gun homicide rate.
So’s the E.U. they got it to work. The excuses Americans will make for allowing themselves to ignore the dead kid problem is astounding. And you’re right, there is more that drives homicide rate, like lack of social services, 10% of your population living without food security on an annual basis, 54% of your adult population reading below a 6th grade literacy level, there’s a lot of big problems and you aren’t fixing any of them.
And on this I am in 100% agreement. It’s fucking shameful that we don’t take care of our own people. But our government spends money it doesn’t have like there’s no tomorrow; our military is bigger than the next 10 in the world combined (including all of our enemies) and we continue to fund it at absurd rates, we have billions of $ worth of domestic spying invading our privacy. And while we fight over whether we protect kids with more guns or less guns, we then throw them in schools where teachers are barely able to scrape by, send them into a cutthroat society where corporations fuck over the employees with no remorse, and where if you’re not rich you probably can’t afford much in the way of decent health care.
Quite frankly it’s shameful. It’s appalling. If it or any part of it was imposed upon us by force by another nation, we’d all go to war and support using nukes against them. But we do it to ourselves so we smile and nod and say ‘oh he got cancer and went bankrupt and couldn’t afford treatment and died’ like that’s the way things are supposed to be.
And then in our politics we fight over should we elect this loser or that psycho, should we have more guns or less guns, should we have more immigration or more border security, meanwhile upward mobility is down, quality of life is down, the wealth of the nation is being extracted by big companies, and we’re too distracted by random shit to fix the underlying problems.
So if you think I’m one of the ‘Murica, fuck yeah!’ people, I’m not. I love my country and I’m proud to be American, but I’m not proud of what my nation has become lately.
I would agree with this, but it’s not about guns (especially since most of those kids are shot with illegal guns by people who can’t legally own guns).
The problem is poverty. And we do fuck all about that.
No, it’s “not about guns”. We still have guns, I have friends who have guns, I’ve shot and hunted. It’s about having the adequate systems in place for BEFORE people get the guns. And yes there are lots of guns already, but not putting in limitations won’t make that number drop will it? Not trying voluntary buy-backs won’t get unwanted guns out of normal citizens homes. Not having adequate food, wealth, and access to education isn’t going to reduce the amount of crime that scared regular Americans into thinking they need emotional support weapons. Just do something, fucking anything. It’s not that nothing works, it’s that you refuse to try what works elsewhere because you’ve been fooled into thinking you’re special individual snowflakes, but your ravenous individuality has eroded any capacity you have for co-operation with your fellow Americans in securing your right to live.
There’s 500 million legal privately owned guns in the US. If you assume an average value of $450, that’s $225 billion.
If I had $225 billion to spend, I sure as fuck wouldn’t spend it buying back guns. I’d fund mental health care, I’d fund education, I’d fund jobs programs.
These DO happen in a lot of places, on a local or state level. Doesn’t have much effect because the people who commit the crimes are the ones with illegal guns who aren’t gonna sell them.
We are stupid in that we refuse to try things like single payer health care.
But I suspect almost any gun policy you’d come up with has been tried somewhere in the USA.
What you’re really missing is there are two kinds of gun owners in USA- law-abiding and criminal. The law-abiding ones aren’t committing most of the gun crime. Look at the stats for defensive gun use (when a law-abiding person uses a legal gun to stop or prevent a crime)- they aren’t tracked by government so the data has to come from statistical surveys, but even the anti-gun people agree that DGUs happen 5-6x more often than firearm homicide.
Most DGUs end with no shots fired- criminal sees gun and runs away.
And with respect, this is a totally ignorant comment that’s based on an anti-gun talking point and not any actual knowledge of American gun policy, gun ownership culture, stated reasons for owning guns, or anything other than conjecture and accusation.
You say ‘try what works’ (presumably referring to European-style gun control) but show no concept of understanding how truly difficult (damn near impossible) it would be to implement, even if a majority of the nation wanted it (which they don’t). And you ignore the fact that much of what you call ‘what works’ HAS been tried, or is currently being tried.
I don’t mean to insult you or personally attack you. But the fact is your accusations show little understanding of the REALITY of American gun ownership, why Americans buy and own guns, and what they do with them.
I’m happy to share what I know. But if your mind is concluded and closed, if you’ve just decided ‘Americans are ammosexual hicks who refuse to give up their penis extenders to keep their own kids safe’ and you are not open to even entertaining the possibility that reality is much more complex than that, then there’s nothing I or anyone else can say.
If you want to understand, at least from one American’s POV, like I said I’m happy to share. And IMHO it’s fascinating- I wasn’t always pro-gun, I wasn’t raised around guns or gun culture, so what I know comes from my own independent research without most of the emotion you see in many gun arguments.
So my friend, can you try an open mind?
Boohoo, gun control is hard so we aren’t gonna do it. Dead kids just gonna keep piling up till you do. Stop killing kids with your emotional support weapons you fucking cowards. How about that for opening your goddamned mind, or is the only mind opening you know the sort that happens with lead in American schools.
I don’t believe you’re reading anything I write with an open mind or good faith.
I’ve tried to explain that we HAVE tried, we DO try, almost any gun control you might propose either exist in one state or another or has been tried at some poine.
It sounds like your approach is either ‘do exactly what we do the way we do it or you’re wrong’.
I’m happy to debate in good faith, but that requires you to read and address what I write rather than just throw insults and restate the same points you’ve already said (which I’ve already addressed).
I don’t believe your populace has done anything significant otherwise there’d be significant change. Actions speak louder than words. Have fun burying your babies.
I believe in the scientific method- test your theory and others, then go by what works and stop doing what doesn’t. Do you generally agree with this?
If you do, then how do you explain the fact that on your own link the state by state data shows little correlation between anti-gun policies in a state and low rates of gun homicide in the state?
If taking serious anti-gun action would actually reduce gun homicide, wouldn’t you expect states like DC and IL (which have strong gun control) to have less gun homicide, and states like VT, NH and UT (which have little or no gun control other than the federal minimum requirements) to have more gun homicide?
It seems to me that the policy YOU advocate isn’t having a demonstrably positive effect. How do you explain that?