On Tuesday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution to censure Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) over comments she made advocating for Palestinians to be free.
NO, she was censured because she posted a video using a slogan popular with anti semitics, let’s get that right. I understand she’s trying to appeal to her people but you can’t just come out and support hatred from the other side.
Oh fuck off with that argument. The slogan is about slaughtering Jews of Israel to push them to the sea. Someone using a slogan that is bigoted is just bigoted. Fuck your dissemble attempts.
You’re continuing to equate being Jewish with an jewish apartheid state, which, as I said before, is antisemitic.
Destroying Israel doesn’t actually mean killing Jewish people there, that’s some settler-ass logic. Can you name a single time that an apartheid state was destroyed that resulted in all the settlers being killed? Destroying apartheid states is much less violent than apartheid.
Go to a pro Palestine reality and see Jewish people lead “from the river to the sea” chants if you want a visceral illustration of how silly the propaganda you’ve bought into is.
So here’s my honest question, why are the Jewish people relatively singled out as excluded from being allowed to desire a state/homeland? Is there an argument that the Jewish people did not originate from that area of the world, and if so, where is the actual Jewish homeland? Did the Jewish people spring forth fully developed from Zeus’s forehead? The argument seems to be that all indigenous peoples should have at least parts of their lands and autonomy restored to them all over the world; except for the Jews, because fuck them they don’t deserve a country for non-antisemetic reasons and they should have integrated into a new Arabic country of Palestine instead of splitting the land.
Ignoring the history of Jewish treatment in other countries around the globe for centuries, I don’t understand how, for a land that is the historical birthplace of several peoples, it is considered good for one of those peoples to fight for it and bad for another of those peoples to do the same. It all seems to come down to where anyone’s specific biases fall, while everyone claims to not have any biases.
You’re premise is nonsense, there are anti-apartheid movements whereever apartheid states exist. There was an anti-apartheid movement in South Africa way before now.
The premise that the Jewish people might deserve a country is nonsense? If it is, I am asking why do they not deserve one while other ethnicities do? Obviously an individuals views on whether Israel is running an apartheid state fall under the biases I mentioned, because some people do not recognize it as such, and I was not addressing the anti-apartheid movement. That definitely deserves its own discussion, but is layers above my question. South Africa is also different in that the apartheid government was formed from outside colonial settlers who had zero historic roots in the area. Israel/Palestine is closer to the bloody formations of India and Pakistan or the many other African wars caused by departing colonial powers arbitrarily redrawing maps on their way out, than South Africa’s white apartheid government in underpinning if not human cost.
I am asking what the people calling for Israel to cease existing and be replaced in it’s entirety by Palestine believe the Jewish people should do? If the region should be Palestine because of Palestinian genealogical roots, why do the Jews not get any claim in the region for the same reason? Is it because they were conquered and removed from the region in the past and the Palestinians weren’t? Mainly, if a two state solution isn’t desirable, it seems to be either because the Jewish people have insufficient or lacking genealogical claim in the region, or because they don’t deserve the same “rights” as the Palestinians for a myriad of other reasons.
You’re wishing death upon Israel. What group of people predominantly live in Israel? Jews. Semites. Thus, antisemitic.
And if your solution is for Israel’s government to just disappear, you’ll be surprised to find that Hamas will treat the
Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists and pagans
no better. Don’t act like Hamas is offering the pinnacle of freedom from religious persecution. Let’s not forget that this is the same Hamas that has endorsed jihad against Jews.
You do realize a state can dissolve without literally everyone dying right? When East Germany and West Germany reunified the entire population of both countries didn’t die. When apartheid collapsed in South Africa all the settlers didn’t die.
How exactly do you read “death to Israel” as “the peaceful dissolution of the Israeli government and end of its apartheid conditions”?
When North Korea says “death to America,” surely they just mean a peaceful change of power, right?
And again, let’s not ignore that the power vacuum would quickly be filled by… Hamas, a terrorist group with a violent track record. Your Germany and South Africa examples are not like Israel.
“death to america” does refer to an end to the US empire- not the American people. I’ve talked with a fair number of Iranians who dislike their own government and Americas reign of terror around the world.
From “the river to the sea” means an end to the apartheid government in occupied Palestine. It’s projection from the murderous settlers that a unified non-apartheid state would mean their own extermination- because that’s what they do to the undesirables in their unified state.
Even if it is an Iranian cultural phrase that’s lost in translation into English, it lacks context. You’ve given the Iranian cultural context, but you’re completely ignoring the global context: the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians. Hamas has, quite literally, brought “death to Israel.”
If something needs context and explanation to not be antisemitic, it’s probably best to not say that thing rather than risk being antisemitic. Otherwise, you’re just demonstrating that you don’t care if you’re sounding antisemitic.
Oh of fucking course it is going to be violent, unless the settler state caves. That is how anticolonial movements always go. But it is a lesser violence vs the continued violence its existence is predicated on.
Please pick up wretched of the earth by Fanon at your local library, it is a very necessary read for westerners.
Who said anything about antisemitic? The fact that multiple people replied to me about antisemitism is telling that YOU think it is antisemitic and need to defend yourself.
You’re talking about the original phrase that had Rashida accused of antisemitism, and given the context it seems like you think “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” is antisemitic.
Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just very tired of dealing with zionist antisemites and may have jumped the gun.
telling that YOU think it is antisemitic and need to defend yourself.
The one thing you know about me is that I’ve said the Jewish side of my family was directly affected by the holocaust. Do you think this is appropriate to say to me? If this was a real life interaction, would you say this outloud?
There was no “literal pre mandatory Palestine border.” Under the Ottomans it was multiple sanjaks under the vilayet of Damascus.
What you call “from the river to the sea” did not exist as an administrative boundary until Winston Churchill created it in 1922 by splitting Mandate Palestine into Transjordan and a new, smaller Mandate Palestine.
Yes there was, it was administered under the same borders as before the ottoman invaded just subdivided to three sub states because that’s how the ottoman maintained control.
Three states that make up the same border and we’re referenced to as a whole as Palestine, you’re not making the point you think you’re making. The United States is quite a bit more than 3 states, are you implying the US doesn’t exist?
That’s like saying if the US collapsed that the existence of former states of Washington, Oregon and half of a state called California proves that there is now a country called “Washoregfornia” even though nobody ever called themselves Washoregfornians when the US existed and nobody governed themselves according to those borders. You’re inverting your logic.
Do you have a problem with the elimination of a genocidal fascist state? If you’re not conflating Jews and Israel then I don’t see why you’d have an issue with the words “death to Israel” unless you support their fascism or their genocide.
So tell me, what do you call the bombardment, forced displacement, limiting of Water, removal of communication for everyone in the area, bombing of refugee came, hospitals, ambulances sent by red cross, etc etc Israel has been doing in Gaza?
…not genocide? Go, read the legal definition of genocide, and show me the mens rea element. Compare it to the Armenian genocide. Compare it to the Holocaust. Compare it to what China is doing to the Uyghurs. People screaming genocide only make themselves look foolish right now.
“On May 3, 2022 the ADL website referred to the slogan as, ‘a slogan commonly featured in pro-Palestinian campaigns and chanted at demonstrations.'” he writes. “Nowhere in the 2022 description is there a mention of antisemitism…On October 26, 2023, the position on the website was changed to include, ‘is an antisemitic slogan’.”
Note the date. The slogan wasn’t considered antisemitic before October. Don’t fall for their bs. Pro-palestine does not mean antisemitic regardless of what these people want you to think.
Yes and no. If a terrorist group co-opts and reinterprets my national slogan, whose slogan is it? Which interpretation is right? Which interpretation was she using?
No it doesn’t. The only people who are guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing are the Zionists, Palestinians just want to be free on their land, they want their land back
A significant portion of Palestinians want to be rid of jews. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard extraordinarily anti-semetic things from my family that escaped Palestine. And if that’s the case think about how the people who still live there feel. At the very least I was able to convince my dad that his problem was with the state of Israel and not Jewish people (all the Jews who spoke out were a big help in that), but for my family that lives a half a world a way that’s not something I can reasonably do.
To be clear fuck Israel and Palestinians should be free from their oppressors. But both of them want ethnic cleansing it’s just that only Israel has the power to do it (it also doesn’t help that Israel killed/black bagged all the major speakers/organizers who weren’t extremists throughout the 70s-90s)
Also from the river to the sea is not inherently anti-semetic
Imagine blaming a country currently being genocided and who’s had decades of aperthied/mass rape inflicted on them for then having extremist views about there oppressors.
How about take the boot off there neck then we can talk?
Hamas didn’t attack Jews anywhere in the world. They are solely focusing on freeing their land from Israeli occupation. Hamas is made up of orphans and refugees. I don’t blame Palestinians for mixing up Zionism with Judaism because that’s what Zionists have been doing for decades
There are zionist asshats in this very thread conflating zionism and Judaism. Those zionist assholes contribute to antisemitism, they are on the same team as the nazis.
I think you’re misattributing them not doing something with them not being able to do something. I’m telling you, the anti-semetism I’ve heard does not stop with Israel. It’s literal Jews control the world and must be eliminated rhetoric. Nazi shit. Ik what Hamas is made up of and why they exist, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to kill all Jews. Hamas in particular with that, people who have been made into orphans, have had their family killed, their land stolen are the most likely to be anti-semetic especially when the people doing it to them are the ones telling them “we represent all jews”. They’re a group of extremists purposefully created by Israel and they’re playing their part very well in Israel’s genocide.
Defend Palestinians, but don’t be naïve about how many of them feel towards Jews. I don’t blame them for how they feel either but that doesn’t make those feelings any less wrong. And it also doesn’t mean Israel is right in their actions. They’re the ones with all the power and they’re the ones who crafted the situation they’re in. They hold all the blame and should stop what they’re doing regardless of the sentiment Hamas or any Palestinian holds towards them.
You don’t have to ignore their anti-semetism to be right about Israel being in the wrong for committing genocide, or to be right about Palestinians having the right be free in their land. Ignoring it only makes it harder to convince and talk to people who know about it.
I don’t blame them for how they feel either but that doesn’t make those feelings any less wrong
Read what you respond to without trying to get a gotcha. It’s not their fault. They’re still wrong for being anti-semetic. The fault still lies solely on Israel for their anti-semitism and Hamas existing.
Don’t ignore reality because it’s inconvenient. You’re on the right side either way so just be honest with the beliefs of Palestinians. I’m honest with my families belief, but guess what? I still support Palestine because it’s not about them being anti-semetic. It’s about them being the victims of apartide and genocide
NO, she was censured because she posted a video using a slogan popular with anti semitics, let’s get that right. I understand she’s trying to appeal to her people but you can’t just come out and support hatred from the other side.
You’re being antisemitic by equating anti-zionism with antisemitism.
-someone who’s Jewish side of the family was directly affected by the holocaust
Oh fuck off with that argument. The slogan is about slaughtering Jews of Israel to push them to the sea. Someone using a slogan that is bigoted is just bigoted. Fuck your dissemble attempts.
You’re continuing to equate being Jewish with an jewish apartheid state, which, as I said before, is antisemitic.
Destroying Israel doesn’t actually mean killing Jewish people there, that’s some settler-ass logic. Can you name a single time that an apartheid state was destroyed that resulted in all the settlers being killed? Destroying apartheid states is much less violent than apartheid.
Go to a pro Palestine reality and see Jewish people lead “from the river to the sea” chants if you want a visceral illustration of how silly the propaganda you’ve bought into is.
I’m Jewish, you don’t get to speak for me. You don’t get to tell me what is and what isn’t antisemitism.
Zionist scum
The word has a specific definition and you’re not using it right. They definitely get to tell you what is and isn’t because you surely don’t know.
With that statement coming out so deep into your argument, I believe you’re a liar and full of shit.
Palestine will be free from the river to the sea
You know the traditional Palestinian border, but sure anti semitic…
Because “Death to Israel” doesn’t rhyme.
“Death to Israel” isn’t antisemitic. A racist genocidal state must die for everyone in Palestine [Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists and pagans] to be free. https://www.threads.net/@torahjudaism/post/CzbmCTzuYRt/
I never said anything was antisemitic. I said that what you are saying is “Death to Israel”. And it seems that you agree.
Yes, death to Israel
So here’s my honest question, why are the Jewish people relatively singled out as excluded from being allowed to desire a state/homeland? Is there an argument that the Jewish people did not originate from that area of the world, and if so, where is the actual Jewish homeland? Did the Jewish people spring forth fully developed from Zeus’s forehead? The argument seems to be that all indigenous peoples should have at least parts of their lands and autonomy restored to them all over the world; except for the Jews, because fuck them they don’t deserve a country for non-antisemetic reasons and they should have integrated into a new Arabic country of Palestine instead of splitting the land.
Ignoring the history of Jewish treatment in other countries around the globe for centuries, I don’t understand how, for a land that is the historical birthplace of several peoples, it is considered good for one of those peoples to fight for it and bad for another of those peoples to do the same. It all seems to come down to where anyone’s specific biases fall, while everyone claims to not have any biases.
You’re premise is nonsense, there are anti-apartheid movements whereever apartheid states exist. There was an anti-apartheid movement in South Africa way before now.
The premise that the Jewish people might deserve a country is nonsense? If it is, I am asking why do they not deserve one while other ethnicities do? Obviously an individuals views on whether Israel is running an apartheid state fall under the biases I mentioned, because some people do not recognize it as such, and I was not addressing the anti-apartheid movement. That definitely deserves its own discussion, but is layers above my question. South Africa is also different in that the apartheid government was formed from outside colonial settlers who had zero historic roots in the area. Israel/Palestine is closer to the bloody formations of India and Pakistan or the many other African wars caused by departing colonial powers arbitrarily redrawing maps on their way out, than South Africa’s white apartheid government in underpinning if not human cost.
I am asking what the people calling for Israel to cease existing and be replaced in it’s entirety by Palestine believe the Jewish people should do? If the region should be Palestine because of Palestinian genealogical roots, why do the Jews not get any claim in the region for the same reason? Is it because they were conquered and removed from the region in the past and the Palestinians weren’t? Mainly, if a two state solution isn’t desirable, it seems to be either because the Jewish people have insufficient or lacking genealogical claim in the region, or because they don’t deserve the same “rights” as the Palestinians for a myriad of other reasons.
Even if
is true, it doesn’t make this true:
You’re wishing death upon Israel. What group of people predominantly live in Israel? Jews. Semites. Thus, antisemitic.
And if your solution is for Israel’s government to just disappear, you’ll be surprised to find that Hamas will treat the
no better. Don’t act like Hamas is offering the pinnacle of freedom from religious persecution. Let’s not forget that this is the same Hamas that has endorsed jihad against Jews.
You do realize a state can dissolve without literally everyone dying right? When East Germany and West Germany reunified the entire population of both countries didn’t die. When apartheid collapsed in South Africa all the settlers didn’t die.
How exactly do you read “death to Israel” as “the peaceful dissolution of the Israeli government and end of its apartheid conditions”?
When North Korea says “death to America,” surely they just mean a peaceful change of power, right?
And again, let’s not ignore that the power vacuum would quickly be filled by… Hamas, a terrorist group with a violent track record. Your Germany and South Africa examples are not like Israel.
“death to america” does refer to an end to the US empire- not the American people. I’ve talked with a fair number of Iranians who dislike their own government and Americas reign of terror around the world.
From “the river to the sea” means an end to the apartheid government in occupied Palestine. It’s projection from the murderous settlers that a unified non-apartheid state would mean their own extermination- because that’s what they do to the undesirables in their unified state.
The government isn’t the people.
Marg bar Amrika
Reach.
Even if it is an Iranian cultural phrase that’s lost in translation into English, it lacks context. You’ve given the Iranian cultural context, but you’re completely ignoring the global context: the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians. Hamas has, quite literally, brought “death to Israel.”
If something needs context and explanation to not be antisemitic, it’s probably best to not say that thing rather than risk being antisemitic. Otherwise, you’re just demonstrating that you don’t care if you’re sounding antisemitic.
Peace be with you.
Oh of fucking course it is going to be violent, unless the settler state caves. That is how anticolonial movements always go. But it is a lesser violence vs the continued violence its existence is predicated on.
Please pick up wretched of the earth by Fanon at your local library, it is a very necessary read for westerners.
Okay so you are saying that:
Thus, “death to Israel” is calling for violence upon Jews. Antisemitic. Case closed.
Whenever a flag does genocide it’s time for that flag to go.
RIP American flag
Rest in piss
That literally isn’t antisemitic, conflating antizionism and antisemitism is antisemitic
-someone who’s Jewish side of the family was directly affected by the holocaust
Who said anything about antisemitic? The fact that multiple people replied to me about antisemitism is telling that YOU think it is antisemitic and need to defend yourself.
You’re talking about the original phrase that had Rashida accused of antisemitism, and given the context it seems like you think “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” is antisemitic.
Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m just very tired of dealing with zionist antisemites and may have jumped the gun.
The one thing you know about me is that I’ve said the Jewish side of my family was directly affected by the holocaust. Do you think this is appropriate to say to me? If this was a real life interaction, would you say this outloud?
We all know what they meant, they can hedge if they’d like but I don’t think anyone is buying what they’re selling.
It’s the literal pre mandatory Palestine border.
There was no “literal pre mandatory Palestine border.” Under the Ottomans it was multiple sanjaks under the vilayet of Damascus.
What you call “from the river to the sea” did not exist as an administrative boundary until Winston Churchill created it in 1922 by splitting Mandate Palestine into Transjordan and a new, smaller Mandate Palestine.
Does nobody study history before spouting off?
Yes there was, it was administered under the same borders as before the ottoman invaded just subdivided to three sub states because that’s how the ottoman maintained control.
Do they indeed.
“Just subdivided into three states”.
Thank you. Like I said, those administrative borders never existed. It’s a British colonial construct.
Three states that make up the same border and we’re referenced to as a whole as Palestine, you’re not making the point you think you’re making. The United States is quite a bit more than 3 states, are you implying the US doesn’t exist?
That’s like saying if the US collapsed that the existence of former states of Washington, Oregon and half of a state called California proves that there is now a country called “Washoregfornia” even though nobody ever called themselves Washoregfornians when the US existed and nobody governed themselves according to those borders. You’re inverting your logic.
Conflating Israel with Jewish people is anti-semetic
You’re just too deep in the sauce to realize that, anti-semite.
Where did I conflate Jews and Israel? Where did I say anything about antisemitism?
Nice strawman, bro.
Do you have a problem with the elimination of a genocidal fascist state? If you’re not conflating Jews and Israel then I don’t see why you’d have an issue with the words “death to Israel” unless you support their fascism or their genocide.
lol. “Genocidal”. I’ve been loving reading all the international law analysis from people who couldn’t even get into law school.
So tell me, what do you call the bombardment, forced displacement, limiting of Water, removal of communication for everyone in the area, bombing of refugee came, hospitals, ambulances sent by red cross, etc etc Israel has been doing in Gaza?
…not genocide? Go, read the legal definition of genocide, and show me the mens rea element. Compare it to the Armenian genocide. Compare it to the Holocaust. Compare it to what China is doing to the Uyghurs. People screaming genocide only make themselves look foolish right now.
War crimes? Possibly. Genocide?! No.
“On May 3, 2022 the ADL website referred to the slogan as, ‘a slogan commonly featured in pro-Palestinian campaigns and chanted at demonstrations.'” he writes. “Nowhere in the 2022 description is there a mention of antisemitism…On October 26, 2023, the position on the website was changed to include, ‘is an antisemitic slogan’.”
Note the date. The slogan wasn’t considered antisemitic before October. Don’t fall for their bs. Pro-palestine does not mean antisemitic regardless of what these people want you to think.
Don’t fall… For the Antidefamation Leagues bullshit regarding what qualifies as hate speech?
They’re the defacto people who describe it in America lol.
Nah sorry I meant “their bs” in a more general sense. “They” as in anyone equating Israel criticism to antisemitism.
Yes and no. If a terrorist group co-opts and reinterprets my national slogan, whose slogan is it? Which interpretation is right? Which interpretation was she using?
It’s pretty much always meant kill all the jews there. Also once a slogan or symbol gets corrupted it’s not really usable anymore, see the swastika.
No it doesn’t. The only people who are guilty of genocide and ethnic cleansing are the Zionists, Palestinians just want to be free on their land, they want their land back
A significant portion of Palestinians want to be rid of jews. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard extraordinarily anti-semetic things from my family that escaped Palestine. And if that’s the case think about how the people who still live there feel. At the very least I was able to convince my dad that his problem was with the state of Israel and not Jewish people (all the Jews who spoke out were a big help in that), but for my family that lives a half a world a way that’s not something I can reasonably do.
To be clear fuck Israel and Palestinians should be free from their oppressors. But both of them want ethnic cleansing it’s just that only Israel has the power to do it (it also doesn’t help that Israel killed/black bagged all the major speakers/organizers who weren’t extremists throughout the 70s-90s)
Also from the river to the sea is not inherently anti-semetic
Imagine blaming a country currently being genocided and who’s had decades of aperthied/mass rape inflicted on them for then having extremist views about there oppressors.
How about take the boot off there neck then we can talk?
Hamas didn’t attack Jews anywhere in the world. They are solely focusing on freeing their land from Israeli occupation. Hamas is made up of orphans and refugees. I don’t blame Palestinians for mixing up Zionism with Judaism because that’s what Zionists have been doing for decades
There are zionist asshats in this very thread conflating zionism and Judaism. Those zionist assholes contribute to antisemitism, they are on the same team as the nazis.
zionists literally worked with hitler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
A good illustration of how zionism benefits from Jewish people being discriminated against outside of the zionist entity.
I think you’re misattributing them not doing something with them not being able to do something. I’m telling you, the anti-semetism I’ve heard does not stop with Israel. It’s literal Jews control the world and must be eliminated rhetoric. Nazi shit. Ik what Hamas is made up of and why they exist, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to kill all Jews. Hamas in particular with that, people who have been made into orphans, have had their family killed, their land stolen are the most likely to be anti-semetic especially when the people doing it to them are the ones telling them “we represent all jews”. They’re a group of extremists purposefully created by Israel and they’re playing their part very well in Israel’s genocide.
Defend Palestinians, but don’t be naïve about how many of them feel towards Jews. I don’t blame them for how they feel either but that doesn’t make those feelings any less wrong. And it also doesn’t mean Israel is right in their actions. They’re the ones with all the power and they’re the ones who crafted the situation they’re in. They hold all the blame and should stop what they’re doing regardless of the sentiment Hamas or any Palestinian holds towards them.
You don’t have to ignore their anti-semetism to be right about Israel being in the wrong for committing genocide, or to be right about Palestinians having the right be free in their land. Ignoring it only makes it harder to convince and talk to people who know about it.
It is not the Palestinians fault that the people colonizing them are Jewish and use the Torah to justify their war crimes
“Jewish settlers stole my house. It’s not my fault they’re Jewish.” https://mondoweiss.net/2023/09/jewish-settlers-stole-my-house-its-not-my-fault-theyre-jewish/
Read what you respond to without trying to get a gotcha. It’s not their fault. They’re still wrong for being anti-semetic. The fault still lies solely on Israel for their anti-semitism and Hamas existing.
Don’t ignore reality because it’s inconvenient. You’re on the right side either way so just be honest with the beliefs of Palestinians. I’m honest with my families belief, but guess what? I still support Palestine because it’s not about them being anti-semetic. It’s about them being the victims of apartide and genocide
Logic falls apart when you realize swastikas are still common in asian countries. Don’t let the terrorists win.