On Tuesday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a resolution to censure Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-MI) over comments she made advocating for Palestinians to be free.
You do realize a state can dissolve without literally everyone dying right? When East Germany and West Germany reunified the entire population of both countries didn’t die. When apartheid collapsed in South Africa all the settlers didn’t die.
How exactly do you read “death to Israel” as “the peaceful dissolution of the Israeli government and end of its apartheid conditions”?
When North Korea says “death to America,” surely they just mean a peaceful change of power, right?
And again, let’s not ignore that the power vacuum would quickly be filled by… Hamas, a terrorist group with a violent track record. Your Germany and South Africa examples are not like Israel.
“death to america” does refer to an end to the US empire- not the American people. I’ve talked with a fair number of Iranians who dislike their own government and Americas reign of terror around the world.
From “the river to the sea” means an end to the apartheid government in occupied Palestine. It’s projection from the murderous settlers that a unified non-apartheid state would mean their own extermination- because that’s what they do to the undesirables in their unified state.
Even if it is an Iranian cultural phrase that’s lost in translation into English, it lacks context. You’ve given the Iranian cultural context, but you’re completely ignoring the global context: the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians. Hamas has, quite literally, brought “death to Israel.”
If something needs context and explanation to not be antisemitic, it’s probably best to not say that thing rather than risk being antisemitic. Otherwise, you’re just demonstrating that you don’t care if you’re sounding antisemitic.
For the same reason that it was Islamaphobic for the US to invade Iraq, it is antisemitic for you to say “death to Israel” while Hamas is killing Israeli civilians and saying “death to Israel.” We cannot ignore the context of racial/religious tensions and the fact that these nations have racial/religious majorities.
The state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate, that is the context for the tensions. Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day, and has been long before October 7. Before the European colony arrived, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed in Palestine.
For the same reason that it was Islamaphobic for the US to invade Iraq, it is antisemitic for you to say “death to Israel”
This is a bit of a nonsequiter. The US is islamaphobic, and the Iraq invasion was criminal, informed by chauvanism, orientalism, and islamophobia, but it’s hardly the equivalent of an occupied people resisting that occupation.
May they all be free from the river to the sea someday.
You’re now admitting that Israel is a Jewish state despite trying to claim otherwise for this entire thread.
Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Israel is doing horrible things, but it doesn’t deflect from the fact that “death to Israel” is antisemitic.
Before the European colony arrived, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed in Palestine.
Well, they aren’t coexisting now. Sorry, can’t go back in time. We solve problems of today because it is impossible to make things the way they once were. And which “European colony” are you referring to? The Jews? I thought this wasn’t about them? Dog whistle.
the Iraq invasion was … informed by … islamophobia
But by your own logic, I thought a government is different from the major racial/religious group of its people? We can’t say it was Islamaphobic just because the people there tend to be majority Muslim, right? We’d need other context, like… above.
hardly the equivalent of an occupied people resisting that occupation
I never said that Palestine doesn’t have a right to resist its occupation.
You’ve taken this argument far away from “death to Israel” not being antisemitic because you’re trying to argue that Palestine should exist. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but it doesn’t make you not antisemitic.
You’re now admitting that Israel is a Jewish state despite trying to claim otherwise for this entire thread.
I’ve only responded to you a couple times, and all I said is that Israel is not all jews, does not speak for all jews, and is a genocidal ethnostate.
Saying death to an ethnostate does not mean death to the people in it, same as death to america doesn’t literally mean all americans should die.
This isn’t that hard.
Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Israel is doing horrible things, but it doesn’t deflect from the fact that “death to Israel” is antisemitic.
One of those parties is a colonial occupier, the other an occupied people resisting state violence. I can support one and not the other.
You’ve taken this argument far away from “death to Israel” not being antisemitic because you’re trying to argue that Palestine should exist. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but it doesn’t make you not antisemitic.
Death to Israel is not antisemetic, because despite the europeans wrapping it in the trappings of jewishness, it isn’t all jews, doesn’t speak for all jews.
Israel systematically disenfranchises non-jews and sterilizes non-white jews.
Comparing the hamas attack to the holocaust is like comparing an indigenous people’s raid of settler encampments to the holocaust. It is wildly inappropriate and ignores the difference in power between Jewish people under the nazis and Jewish people in a White Jewish ethnostate
the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians.
Makes it sound like you think they’re of similar themes. Theyre not. One was a wholesale slaughter of an oppressed minority, the other was anticolonial violence directed at settlers.
Both involve the killing of innocent civilians based on their racioethnic group.
Different scale, motivation, morals, etc? Yes. Still, they give both context to saying “death to Israel” because they prove that the statement is being used in a violent way.
Both involve the killing of innocent civilians based on their racioethnic group
This is reductionist. You need to wipe away of the context of a white Jewish supremacist apartheid state vs the context of being scapegoats for the nazis for your position to make sense.
Also settlers aren’t civilians, settlement is part of an extended military campaign of genocide.
Yes. Still, they give both context to saying “death to Israel” because they prove that the statement is being used in a violent way.
Violence is justified against settlers, violence isn’t justified against an oppressed ethnic minority. They are distinct things.
Oh of fucking course it is going to be violent, unless the settler state caves. That is how anticolonial movements always go. But it is a lesser violence vs the continued violence its existence is predicated on.
Please pick up wretched of the earth by Fanon at your local library, it is a very necessary read for westerners.
It is antisemitic to equate calling for violence against Jewish settlers partaking in genocide to calling for violence against all Jews on the basis of being Jewish.
You’re being antisemitic. And if you aren’t Jewish, you need to shut the fuck up now. If you are, I’d be happy to explain why your position harms us as a whole.
Yeah, it really sucks that colonial violence makes anticolonial violence inevitable. Israel needs to stop doing colonial violence so that the anticolonial violence stops. It will never stop until the colonial violence stops or Israel exterminates all Palestinians.
This isn’t a threat this is just an understanding of historical materialism.
If you actually cared about Jewish people and weren’t interested in Jewish death to advance a settler colonial political project you’d be calling for an end to Israeli apartheid.
You do realize a state can dissolve without literally everyone dying right? When East Germany and West Germany reunified the entire population of both countries didn’t die. When apartheid collapsed in South Africa all the settlers didn’t die.
How exactly do you read “death to Israel” as “the peaceful dissolution of the Israeli government and end of its apartheid conditions”?
When North Korea says “death to America,” surely they just mean a peaceful change of power, right?
And again, let’s not ignore that the power vacuum would quickly be filled by… Hamas, a terrorist group with a violent track record. Your Germany and South Africa examples are not like Israel.
“death to america” does refer to an end to the US empire- not the American people. I’ve talked with a fair number of Iranians who dislike their own government and Americas reign of terror around the world.
From “the river to the sea” means an end to the apartheid government in occupied Palestine. It’s projection from the murderous settlers that a unified non-apartheid state would mean their own extermination- because that’s what they do to the undesirables in their unified state.
The government isn’t the people.
Marg bar Amrika
Reach.
Even if it is an Iranian cultural phrase that’s lost in translation into English, it lacks context. You’ve given the Iranian cultural context, but you’re completely ignoring the global context: the Holocaust of 6 million Jews and the recent terror attack that killed and took hostages of hundreds of Israeli civilians. Hamas has, quite literally, brought “death to Israel.”
If something needs context and explanation to not be antisemitic, it’s probably best to not say that thing rather than risk being antisemitic. Otherwise, you’re just demonstrating that you don’t care if you’re sounding antisemitic.
Peace be with you.
Israel isn’t all Jews, doesn’t represent all Jews, and it’s legit antisemitic to say that it is.
You are the one sounding antisemitic.
For the same reason that it was Islamaphobic for the US to invade Iraq, it is antisemitic for you to say “death to Israel” while Hamas is killing Israeli civilians and saying “death to Israel.” We cannot ignore the context of racial/religious tensions and the fact that these nations have racial/religious majorities.
The state of Israel is a genocidal ethnostate, that is the context for the tensions. Israel kills way more Palestinian civilians every day, and has been long before October 7. Before the European colony arrived, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed in Palestine.
This is a bit of a nonsequiter. The US is islamaphobic, and the Iraq invasion was criminal, informed by chauvanism, orientalism, and islamophobia, but it’s hardly the equivalent of an occupied people resisting that occupation.
May they all be free from the river to the sea someday.
You’re now admitting that Israel is a Jewish state despite trying to claim otherwise for this entire thread.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Israel is doing horrible things, but it doesn’t deflect from the fact that “death to Israel” is antisemitic.
Well, they aren’t coexisting now. Sorry, can’t go back in time. We solve problems of today because it is impossible to make things the way they once were. And which “European colony” are you referring to? The Jews? I thought this wasn’t about them? Dog whistle.
But by your own logic, I thought a government is different from the major racial/religious group of its people? We can’t say it was Islamaphobic just because the people there tend to be majority Muslim, right? We’d need other context, like… above.
I never said that Palestine doesn’t have a right to resist its occupation.
You’ve taken this argument far away from “death to Israel” not being antisemitic because you’re trying to argue that Palestine should exist. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but it doesn’t make you not antisemitic.
I’ve only responded to you a couple times, and all I said is that Israel is not all jews, does not speak for all jews, and is a genocidal ethnostate.
Saying death to an ethnostate does not mean death to the people in it, same as death to america doesn’t literally mean all americans should die.
This isn’t that hard.
One of those parties is a colonial occupier, the other an occupied people resisting state violence. I can support one and not the other.
Death to Israel is not antisemetic, because despite the europeans wrapping it in the trappings of jewishness, it isn’t all jews, doesn’t speak for all jews.
Israel systematically disenfranchises non-jews and sterilizes non-white jews.
Is saying “death to america” fatphobic?
Comparing the hamas attack to the holocaust is like comparing an indigenous people’s raid of settler encampments to the holocaust. It is wildly inappropriate and ignores the difference in power between Jewish people under the nazis and Jewish people in a White Jewish ethnostate
I did not compare these two events.
This part of the post
Makes it sound like you think they’re of similar themes. Theyre not. One was a wholesale slaughter of an oppressed minority, the other was anticolonial violence directed at settlers.
Both involve the killing of innocent civilians based on their racioethnic group.
Different scale, motivation, morals, etc? Yes. Still, they give both context to saying “death to Israel” because they prove that the statement is being used in a violent way.
This is reductionist. You need to wipe away of the context of a white Jewish supremacist apartheid state vs the context of being scapegoats for the nazis for your position to make sense.
Also settlers aren’t civilians, settlement is part of an extended military campaign of genocide.
Violence is justified against settlers, violence isn’t justified against an oppressed ethnic minority. They are distinct things.
Oh of fucking course it is going to be violent, unless the settler state caves. That is how anticolonial movements always go. But it is a lesser violence vs the continued violence its existence is predicated on.
Please pick up wretched of the earth by Fanon at your local library, it is a very necessary read for westerners.
Okay so you are saying that:
Thus, “death to Israel” is calling for violence upon Jews. Antisemitic. Case closed.
It is antisemitic to equate calling for violence against Jewish settlers partaking in genocide to calling for violence against all Jews on the basis of being Jewish.
You’re being antisemitic. And if you aren’t Jewish, you need to shut the fuck up now. If you are, I’d be happy to explain why your position harms us as a whole.
Bu-but the non-jewish allies have very strong feelings about protecting the european settler state!!
I heard some germans even donated supplies to it
Living in a place is not a reason to be killed. Being born in a place is not a reason to be killed.
Yeah, it really sucks that colonial violence makes anticolonial violence inevitable. Israel needs to stop doing colonial violence so that the anticolonial violence stops. It will never stop until the colonial violence stops or Israel exterminates all Palestinians.
This isn’t a threat this is just an understanding of historical materialism.
If you actually cared about Jewish people and weren’t interested in Jewish death to advance a settler colonial political project you’d be calling for an end to Israeli apartheid.
I don’t think Israel should continue its actions in Palestine. I call for an end to the apartheid. There.
However, saying “death to Israel” doesn’t bring us any closer to peace.
It effectively communicates the message in my opinion.