I’d say it’s rather that a trans person shouldn’t prove anything to anyone, same as cis. If they feel the need to prove, that’s likely because of influence of toxic gender standards
Well I don’t know where you read the proving part. it is about feeling like a gender, not proving that you are. If you want to change topics, sure, we can talk about a different topic. Do you like Chinese food?
It is the logical conclusion of comment. Trans men are men. Unless you want to argue that they aren’t. Or that the men in the comments were implied to be cis men and then want to argue that cis and trans people should be treated differently to each other and therefore a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t.
Yes. And to be men the don’t need to say that. Visibility is another thing, and in that regard one might argue that they need, but I think that increasing trans visibility is not the same as ‘I am man’ statements
Edit:
a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t
To this I would also say ‘No’, but I’m starting to guess, we have a very different views on what it is to ‘feel like a man’
Okay the post talks about “needing to feel like a man”. (I am ignoring The comment on the picture because that is not what my issue is. My issue is the general statement in the post of the “aunt” in the picture and The comment section here) The comment is a reaction gifs and I think you agree that maybe you shouldn’t take reaction gifs 100% literally without any adaption to the context. Here the context is men FEELING manly. So I think it is fair to understand it as “if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren’t”
In that context, you can’t remove looking like a man, or maybe doing stereotypical man stuff, or anything that makes that person feel manly. The questions are, of course, what the fuck do you need to feel manly? What causes you to say that? What are you requiring?
All Women need to submit to you? Well that is completely unreasonable and you are an idiot. Not wanting to have your living room painted in pink, rather reasonable.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly. If it is something that would require something from someone else, Of course, there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests. And you can reject to fulfill them, you can even mock them if you want, but they aren’t less of a man for wanting to feel like one and painting that desire with a broad brush like in aunt’s post is also pretty bad (and probably sexist)
Maybe we have a different view on what it is to feel like a man. But if that is the case, then tell me, why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean? Because we would mean different things, so why wouldn’t they mean something else than you or me?
I think you’re reading into this too hard. We all know OP posted that image of GOT to refer to the overtly masculine, typically right wing extremist, men. Who make everything they think and do be gendered in the way they think screams, “I am a manly man.” Which in itself probably stems from daddy issues. I genuinely dont think they were referring to trans people at all.
Yeah I am not only talking about trans people though. Cis men can struggle with their masculinity too. And I would give you the “they mean the toxic men with crazy requirements to others” but when we claim that we are about making people feel comfortable and included, which at least I do. Then we need to ask ourselves if there is inclusive language that you should use, is there exclusive language that we shouldn’t use. What is exclusive language? And the answer is e.g. saying that a man that struggles with manliness is not a man. Sure, the suffering of trans men are worse than e.g. a cis man that doesn’t feel manly, but we shouldn’t play the victim Olympics but support each other in our struggles. And a blanket statement that ridiculous men who want to feel manly, is just toxic language. Generalization is the issue. I am firmly in support of people who struggle with gender or ethnicity or anything similar. We are brothers and sisters and I don’t like them bullied. I want them comfortable.
If you would be upset over someone making fun of a trans man’s struggle of feeling like man, maybe don’t make fun of a cis man.
If you aren’t upset over someone making fun of a trans man’s struggle of feeling like a man, you are an asshole.
I think it is fair to understand it as “if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren’t”
I think I’ve read it differently and this was the source of misunderstanding. I understood it as you should do what you feel like doing and not saying others that it’s a manly thing to do.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly
Absolutely agree.
why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean?
This, I think is the same misunderstanding of mine, I didn’t understand that as expressing the fair desire to feel like a man, but as demanding confirmation from others.
Regarding the inclusion, I think you’re right and I am just too toxic myself and too pessimistic. I agree that it would be better to create an inclusive environment and try to support everyone and maybe even fix the toxic masculinity in some. This is a complicated task but a worthy one
I’d say it’s rather that a trans person shouldn’t prove anything to anyone, same as cis. If they feel the need to prove, that’s likely because of influence of toxic gender standards
Well I don’t know where you read the proving part. it is about feeling like a gender, not proving that you are. If you want to change topics, sure, we can talk about a different topic. Do you like Chinese food?
Yes, I do. I also do think that you were also reading what wasn’t in the thread starter’s post
It is the logical conclusion of comment. Trans men are men. Unless you want to argue that they aren’t. Or that the men in the comments were implied to be cis men and then want to argue that cis and trans people should be treated differently to each other and therefore a trans man have every right to want to feel like a man but a cis man doesn’t.
No, why?
Yes. And to be men the don’t need to say that. Visibility is another thing, and in that regard one might argue that they need, but I think that increasing trans visibility is not the same as ‘I am man’ statements
Edit:
To this I would also say ‘No’, but I’m starting to guess, we have a very different views on what it is to ‘feel like a man’
Okay the post talks about “needing to feel like a man”. (I am ignoring The comment on the picture because that is not what my issue is. My issue is the general statement in the post of the “aunt” in the picture and The comment section here) The comment is a reaction gifs and I think you agree that maybe you shouldn’t take reaction gifs 100% literally without any adaption to the context. Here the context is men FEELING manly. So I think it is fair to understand it as “if you have to say that you want to feel manly, you aren’t”
In that context, you can’t remove looking like a man, or maybe doing stereotypical man stuff, or anything that makes that person feel manly. The questions are, of course, what the fuck do you need to feel manly? What causes you to say that? What are you requiring?
All Women need to submit to you? Well that is completely unreasonable and you are an idiot. Not wanting to have your living room painted in pink, rather reasonable.
I heavily reject the notion that you or me get to decide what makes someone feel manly. If it is something that would require something from someone else, Of course, there are reasonable requests and unreasonable requests. And you can reject to fulfill them, you can even mock them if you want, but they aren’t less of a man for wanting to feel like one and painting that desire with a broad brush like in aunt’s post is also pretty bad (and probably sexist)
Maybe we have a different view on what it is to feel like a man. But if that is the case, then tell me, why are we judging men for expressing that they want to feel like a man without asking them what the fuck they mean? Because we would mean different things, so why wouldn’t they mean something else than you or me?
I think you’re reading into this too hard. We all know OP posted that image of GOT to refer to the overtly masculine, typically right wing extremist, men. Who make everything they think and do be gendered in the way they think screams, “I am a manly man.” Which in itself probably stems from daddy issues. I genuinely dont think they were referring to trans people at all.
Yeah I am not only talking about trans people though. Cis men can struggle with their masculinity too. And I would give you the “they mean the toxic men with crazy requirements to others” but when we claim that we are about making people feel comfortable and included, which at least I do. Then we need to ask ourselves if there is inclusive language that you should use, is there exclusive language that we shouldn’t use. What is exclusive language? And the answer is e.g. saying that a man that struggles with manliness is not a man. Sure, the suffering of trans men are worse than e.g. a cis man that doesn’t feel manly, but we shouldn’t play the victim Olympics but support each other in our struggles. And a blanket statement that ridiculous men who want to feel manly, is just toxic language. Generalization is the issue. I am firmly in support of people who struggle with gender or ethnicity or anything similar. We are brothers and sisters and I don’t like them bullied. I want them comfortable.
If you would be upset over someone making fun of a trans man’s struggle of feeling like man, maybe don’t make fun of a cis man.
If you aren’t upset over someone making fun of a trans man’s struggle of feeling like a man, you are an asshole.
I think I’ve read it differently and this was the source of misunderstanding. I understood it as you should do what you feel like doing and not saying others that it’s a manly thing to do.
Absolutely agree.
This, I think is the same misunderstanding of mine, I didn’t understand that as expressing the fair desire to feel like a man, but as demanding confirmation from others.
Regarding the inclusion, I think you’re right and I am just too toxic myself and too pessimistic. I agree that it would be better to create an inclusive environment and try to support everyone and maybe even fix the toxic masculinity in some. This is a complicated task but a worthy one