ITT: A bunch of non-vegans complaining that content posted to a vegan community makes them uncomfortable.
Also ITT: A bunch of people who haven’t been convinced to go vegan asserting how to convince people to go vegan. Not them, but other people of course.
For the second group, I always like to ask "Why should I use your argument to convince people when it didn’t convince you?"
Seriously, non vegans need to shut the feck up unless they’re willing to make the effort to stop hurting animals. Otherwise I’m not interested in their opinions.
I know I’m going to piss off every single group with this unpopular opinion, but I view veganism/vegetarianism and religion similarly.
Both of them come with benefits and downsides. The extent of these benefits and downsides differ from person to person. There’s no “right” answer, talking about your choice is perfectly fine and I don’t really care what you do either way, but I don’t like it when you try too hard to convert me.
People that want to convert you to their religion are usually concerned about YOU (saving your soul, etc.), so it’s reasonable that it’s YOUR choice to decline. The only concern is about your own well being.
People that want to convert you to veganism, on the other hand, are only concerned about the animals you’re exploiting - it has nothing to do with you personally. Your choice to decline means you’re condemning hundreds of animals to die every year for the rest of your life. This is a hard pill to swallow for animal sympathizers, so you must understand why arguments by vegans tend to be quite passionate.
But the two really aren’t similar, other than the fact that they both make you uncomfortable.
I’m completely on your side, but I disagree that declining veganism condemns hundreds of animals to die. If someone goes vegan, does that mean that those animals will then live?
Those animals wouldn’t be born. It’s supply and demand. The less demand there is for meat, the cheaper it gets, and the less incentive there will be to breed more of them. The goal is to reduce suffering as much as possible, and that can only happen if people stop paying for it.
I get the theoretical point, but I highly doubt that if one person goes vegan, it will cause the meat industry to produce 100 less cows. It will just create slightly more waste.
Don’t get me wrong, more people absolutely should go vegan, I just never liked the view of “you single person can change something”, because that’s just false. It should be marketed more as being part of a bigger group that can create change.
Do you also not vote, because one single vote doesn’t change the outcome?
And that’s besides the point anyways. Me not murdering humans also doesn’t stop them from getting murdered worldwide, but that doesn’t mean I can just walk around and kill people, the same way you have no justification to torture and murder non-human animals, just because they will keep getting killed by others.
Well, you did not get my point at all… Please read it again. Even with voting, saying “I changed the election with my vote” is bullshit. But voting and veganism are important, precisely because it is a group. But targeting individuals is just useless. Because your relative won’t change the world. Many relatives may, but the point is that one single person won’t change shit with a behavioral change.
This is rationalization. You are experiencing cognitive dissonance and trying to rationalize a narrative that relieves it.
What do you mean with that?
when your understanding of philosophy is so poor that you can’t conceive of secular ethics
If your belief is that people shouldn’t try so hard to convince people of their beliefs, then why are you trying to spread that belief to others instead of just keeping it to yourself?
I’m saying that’s what I believe in, I didn’t say you have to agree.
Cool, I don’t agree.
and I don’t really care what you do either way, but I don’t like it when you try too hard to convert me
Internet apathy politics in a nutshell.
If you aren’t and won’t be converted anyway, why should anyone be quieter to please you?
There’s no “right” answer,
That’s where you’re wrong kiddo. Murdering innocents who are just trying to live their lives for no reason other than your pleasure is actually wrong and makes you evil.
Do you hold any strong ethical beliefs at all? Would you also say they are religious? Would you also say that it is up to each individual to decide what is right for them and we should respect that and not push too hard?
What are your reasons for comparing veganism to religion? Aside from having a strong opinion I see no real similarities. To me it feels like non vegans want this comparison to be valid to be able to make it about personal choice when it really is about respecting others.
Also the “there is no right answer” argument is always in favor of the status quo which is factory farming animals. Is that really something you want to preserve?
I, on the other hand, went vegan so that I can be justified in not watching those videos
And now instead I get to watch this cute video of a cow that’s friends with a dog, without having to repress awkward questions about why animal cruelty is only socially condemned for certain animals and not others.
I watched the videos when I went vegan because I was afraid of backsliding. I thought that if I didn’t see what was happening on factory farms, then I might be tempted to go back to eating meat and dairy again.
What does that dog eat?
The dog is obviously vegetarian
Unlike cats, which are obligate carnivores, dogs are only opportunistic carnivores and do just fine on vegetarian and even vegan dog foods.
Dogs can survive on only plants but its much better for them to eat a mixed diet.
I’ve seen the video i have worked on farms it doesnt bother me terribly
The videos made me want stricter regulation, it didn’t make me want to go vegan or cut down on meat.
But there are other reasons to be a little more conservative with meat in my diet.
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The alternatives of Seitan and tofu are healthier, cheaper and available. Not the heavily processed kind, just the basic ones, are definitely healthier than meat. I try to replace meat regularly by those… especially Seitan can be quite good, it has a good ‘bite’ to it
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I am of two minds on the topic. I am sitting here realizing that lab-grown meat and the meat-like alternatives are all, by definition, processed foods. Like, lab-grown meat is just going to end up being beef-like-Velveeta at the end of the day.
If you look into the history of processed foods and why we moved towards them they have some pretty disastrous consequences for our modern life.
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I think it’s important to be aware of the process of everything we consume, that way we can influence the impact our habits have.
I watched some pretty terrible films. Watching those did make me cut down on meat and milk, and it made me try to source my animal products from more ethical sources. I still haven’t been able to make the full commitment to veganism or vegetarianism, though, unfortunately.
That being said, I do wish these kinda of films were shown in schools. It would make most people more conscious of the cruelty and harm caused by these industries, and maybe there would be more push to move to more ethical ways of doing things in the meat and dairy industries.
ethical rape. ethical murder. ethical looking the other way.
I spent years chasing my tail trying to be an “ethical” consumer of intelligent creatures. Each time realizing, fuck, I’ve been lying to myself, complicit in my own brainwashing. There’s no such thing as the ethical consumption of intelligent creatures.
This is fair. You are right. I am not claiming that my way of eating is ethical as it stands at all. I am in the camp of wanting lab grown meat to be widely available and cheap. That is ethical if done right. I already eat meat substitutes, but my finances are not great and sometimes it’s hard to beat the cost effectiveness/nutritional value of regular ground beef or eggs and bacon. In those cases I at least try to buy the least tortured meat I can afford, if you get what I am saying. I do appreciate that there are empathetic people like you in the world.
This is the attitude that makes people turn away and ignore the entire issue. The fact of the matter is that people don’t care about animals and they think this viewpoint is absurd. You have to give them arguments that are self-serving, because they will never equate “ethical meat” with “ethical murder”.
What’s rule 2? Hell, what’s RULE 1?!
I’m not here, in the fucking VEGAN community forum, to hold the hand of fucking animal abusers. So sorry.
The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children. They are owed the unconditional love and protection of their creators.
Locking this thread as it lost any usefulness and it’s getting popular among edgelord kids
Man the comment section here is so fucking wild.
More than i would have expected honestly.
A few seem to be breaking the rules for this specific community too, there was one even going into detail describing a processing facility, and when reprimanded by another user they said they didn’t care.
I was hoping to learn something interesting, but maybe another time in a less popular thread
I don’t see those comments while logged in because they’re from instances that went crazy with the defederation. Lots of redditors who will post ”I like eating meat tho” on a vegan comm from that shithole lemmy.world
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You seem to follow this thread a lot for someone who doesn’t care.
I saw Dominion exactly once, and I can’t put anything in front of me that contains animal murder. Everyone else is cowards.
Everyone else is cowards.
Or worse: they just don’t care. There are people like that. Zero empathy.
I don’t want to make anyone watch these videos, but it does feel like lind of a litmus test for friendship. Like I don’t need you to be vegan to be friends, but if you watch that and say you don’t care, I feel like I can’t trust you with anything.
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Does it not bother you that you essentially fund and participate in the mass torture, rape and killing of billions of sentient beings yearly purely for your pleasure ?
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I tried for a while to make those small changes, but I always found it too hard to do, until I finally just decided to cut out all animal products one night, and I never really went back.
I think the difference was how I framed it, mentally. I always saw it as an act of willpower to not eat animal products, like I have to overcome my cravings in the same way I would if I was cutting calories. But quitting animal products altogether allowed me to frame it differently for myself – instead of telling myself “I shouldn’t eat this”, I can just say “I don’t eat this.” Like, it’s not on the table as something I have to consider. I don’t even have to recognize animal products as food.
Maybe if you cut things out one at a time you could do a similar thing. Though one problem is that it’s a series of changes and commitments you have to make, instead of just one thing. I feel like that could be harder, depending on who you are.
The biggest hurdle from me going vegan was I thought it would be difficult, so I did something similar. Turns out, however, that it’s SUPER EASY to cut out all meat and dairy. Seriously it blew my mind. Just look up a couple recipes, make sure you read ingredient lists on products, and you’re done. That’s all it takes.
The key is to just commit. Jump off the high board and take the plunge. Sure the water may shock you at first but you’ll quickly adapt. Quicker than you’d expect.
I went vegetarian about 9 years ago and went vegan about 1.5 years ago. Honestly I think anyone can go vegetarian overnight. It wasn’t that hard 9 years ago and it’s even easier now with all the fancy mock meats and stuff and greater ability to get plant-based options at restaurants etc. YouTube has endless videos on plant-based cooking and there are tons of vegan/plant-based cookbooks for that too.
To people who are flirting with veganism for ethical reasons, hear me out: would you treat dogfighting, cockfighting, or committing crimes against other people in the same “baby steps” manner that some people endorse with converting to a plant-based diet? Either you think dogfighting (watching animals be harmed for your own pleasure) is bad, or you don’t. Either you think killing animals and subjecting them to suffering needlessly for your own taste pleasure is bad, or you don’t. If you do think it’s bad, put your money where your mouth is and quit.
Weirdest thing to me about this comments section is that I realised I might like Hexbears
sadly true…
A lot of cruelty under capitalism is publicly permitted because people don’t see how the metaphorical sausage is made.
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You’re so brave and edgy and contrarian.
Don’t waste time on pizza slicers. They’re all edge and have no point.
Dunking them for a line at a time is a small price to pay to watch the nazis thrash and screech and fling their own shit.
CW: animal abuse https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=VKGH3wxpf8XegA-J
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Is it an oreo?
I’ve seen those videos, a lot of them. I still choose to eat meat. I totally disagree with the implication that anyone who eats meat is being willfully ignorant of evidence that would convert them.
I think it’s worse to admit that you’re fine with inflicting that kind of pain on animals and still enjoy the end result. There’s a reason they tell parents to be wary of kids who enjoy torture. You’re just a step below that.
When in a series there is a serial killer it’s always the person who enjoyed to torture animals as kid. Take a guess why.
Media likes to play with stereotypes and deliver a story which seems to make sense. It’s not a field study on human psychology.
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If you’re trying to make a comparison, it makes no sense at all.
Holy shit, you are so delusional and full of yourself. You sound like prepubescent teenagers on Xbox Live that call people “pathetic” every chance they get. 💀💀 Get over yourself.
So then why do you eat meat? Are you just a selfish narcissist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else? Or what is it?
Because scientific evidence hates you.
Are you just a selfish narcissist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else?
I’ve been a vegan for almost a decade, and I’ve finally started to see how self-entitled carnists are. How I used to be. I thought that I was entitled to the bodies of other living, sentient beings.
Holier than thou.
Maybe you should consider the possibility that some people in some aspects of life really are holier than thou and you could learn from them. Imagine someone pointing out to a serial killer how not killing is more moral and the killer answers with “Holier than thou.”. Would this be a good comeback?
This is not an equivalent situation, being vegan or vegetarian does not make you legitimately “holier than thou”. It is not a virtuous enough decision to be “holier” than the average person, and eating meat is not a bad enough action to be comparable to being a serial killer.
Just because it is not comparable to a serial killer does not mean that it’s not bad enough to warrant a holier label. How do you justify killing and torturing an animal just for taste pleasure?
I dont kill or torture animals, I support an industry that does by buying the products they create. That is not bad enough of an action for you to be holier.
Scientific evidence is unbiased, you hate them.
Of course I’m not a ‘selfish narcissicist who thinks their pleasure is more important than anything else’, that’s total hyperbole (and the fact you exaggerated the fuck out of something doesn’t make anyone think you’re more intelligent or your point holds more weight).
I will answer you, but my reasoning really doesn’t matter. For me its a combination of the lack of impact I as an individual consumer can have on that industry, and the negative affects veganism can take on your nutrition.
Also, there is ZERO scientific evidence that humans should not eat meat. Unless you’re trying to say those videos are “scientific evidence” that I should be vegan, in which case I think you have psychosis.
If every one went vegan like vegans do, then there absolutely wouldn’t be a lack of impact, what a bizzare thing to suggest?
If everyone acts like you and goes “ah well, I can’t change anything”, that flawed “logic” can be used to commit any number of atrocities.
I do like that “scientific evidence” argument though. Like, “sorry judge there’s no scientific paper decrying killing people with a car so I did it”. You don’t need a scientist to tell you to do an objectively good thing - in this case stopping the unnecessary culling of sentient life for your tastebuds.
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I understand that fully, trust me, but I only control my own actions. I do not care enough about the issues surrounding meat production to take that action knowing I will not enact any change. If I cared enough about those issues, I wouldn’t care if anyone else followed. (As you have).
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That logic only applies on an individual basis, and has to be weighed against how much you care about something.
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I feel you have my point confused, you think I said: “There is ZERO scientific evidence that humans abstaining from eating meat would have a positive impact on our world.”
I said: “There is ZERO scientific evidence humans should not eat meat.”
What do you mean you’ll have no impact?? You realised for every piece of meat you don’t eat, that’s less demand for an animal to be killed right? Not to mention the significant reduction in carbon emissions. That’s not including the change you impart on others. I was convinced to go vegan, and I’ve convinced others as well.
Your first point is just straight out wrong. Do you vote? Or is the fact your vote doesn’t single handedly decide the election enough to dissuade? Your logic could be used by a murderer to go “well, there’s murder in the world that I can’t stop, so I might as well keep murdering!”. Very very broken logic.
I agree with you the only argument against veganism is “I don’t care”. But then you must accept you are a person who knowingly commits bas deeds, deeds you could easily stop today, but choose not to out of greed.
And your third point is just weird? If you accept that scientific discourse agreed abstaining from meat has a worldly positive impact, isn’t that enough? Or is the scientifically supported increase in life expectancy associated with veganism not enough?
I choose not to because I do not care enough to make that decision when it will have no impact. Even if my vote has no impact, I care much more about who gets elected.
I care much more about whether humans should dietarily eat meat than whether abstaining from eating it has monetary or carbon benefits.
so if I’m a ceo trying to not waste money, and my margin for acceptable wasted product is 90% sold 10% unsold, even one person worth of lost sales of meat has a definite possibility of making me buy less next shipment. Even if they’re buying it by the giant crate, if I’m buying meat crates according to a formula, your 1 purchase could be the one that sways me for or against buying another. Do that over the course of 10 years and this turns from a possibility to essentially guaranteed.
I dont care enough to make that small of an impact.
While I get this, maybe it’s better to look at it as the individual animals you’re saving. Red cross members know there are hundreds of millions of lives they can’t save, and the world should change to where these people don’t need the help, but they’re still saving the life of someone here and now. A cow is maybe “less” than a human life, but you’re saving them a lifetime of suffering.
Even just reducing meat to where it’s not a huge annoyance can still make a big difference.
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I can totally see the individual impact argument. Still personally I think if everyone thinks this way, nothing’s gonna change. On the other hand if a sufficient amount of people tries it’s gonna change everything. We just need to be enough individuals to be a movement.
Then again “ZERO scientific evidence”: yeah just fuck yourself. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/20/vegan-diet-cuts-environmental-damage-climate-heating-emissions-study There are several studies showing that we could easily tackle the global hunger crisis, which will only worsen in the next years by going vegan. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets And that’s just one example of “scientific evidence that humans should not eat meat.”
Neither of those links show any evidence as to why humans should not eat meat. They show evidence as to why humans eating meat could assist in dealing with the effects of climate change, but that is not the same claim.
I think we shoulf reduce meat production and make laws so millions of animals dont het abused every day and i aldo saw the videos but i just like meat so i dont think that everyone becoming a vegan would be a good solution. I of course 100% support if someone makes the decision themself. If a meat substitute is found that tastes like meat and solves meats flaws then i would happily switch.
i just like meat so i dont think that everyone becoming a vegan would be a good solution
Neat argument
“They’re absolutely right morally but I like the taste so really some systemic murder and rape of sentient beings is OK in my book”
Wonderful morality you’ve got there
I’d be happy if people would just proofread before submitting.
This is lemmy not a thesis paper lmao
Still prefer not to suffer a stroke from reading a comment.
“I just like meat” is a weird point to make I feel. From a moral standpoint, if you feel it is wrong, it shouldn’t matter wether or not you like the meat (I too remember meat fondly from when I was still eating it). I’ll twist your word into an extreme to illustrate my point, imagine reading this:
“I agree that raping children should be stopped, but I just like children, I don’t think that every one should stop, we should just reduce how much we do it”.
It probably sound like it’s completely ridiculous, but for someone that believe that it is morally wrong to kill and eat animals, this is kinda how you sound.
I’m ok with people not being morally aligned with me, but when they are not consistent in their viewpoint, I can’t help but think they are just rationalising their behavior to ease their mind.
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So every omnivore and carnivore is a child molester? It doesnt work in this way. You need the nutrients from meat. Thats why its do hard to make a meat substitute.
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