Ukraine tells critics of slow counteroffensive to 'shut up' - eviltoast
  • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    Are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine is being ungrateful repeating Kremlin propaganda or are the Hexbear users who are saying Ukraine has a point repeating Kremlin propaganda?

    Is Kremlin propaganda just ontologically what a Hexbear user says?

    • 𝔊𝔦𝔫𝔧𝔲𝔱𝔰𝔲@lemmy.zip
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      1 year ago

      I’m referring to the concerning number of users from your instance who seem obsessed with parroting what has been confirmed to be Kremlin propaganda and lies spread through deliberate misinformation campaigns. Obviously, this isn’t all HexBear users, but you guys clearly have a general problem with this kind of stuff.

        • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          They never respond with actual examples.

          Edit: Lmao they’ve responded with a post that points out Ukraine has been killing people in the Donbas before the war started and a post that highlights the many offramps to the current conflict

          • 𝔊𝔦𝔫𝔧𝔲𝔱𝔰𝔲@lemmy.zip
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            1 year ago

            Points out numerous examples, expecting actual good faith engagement.

            “LOL! You’re wrong!”

            This is why nobody likes you guys and wants to defederate with you. Really great job everyone.

                • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Allright, I guess we’ll just wait until all the able-bodied ukrainians have been killed (despite themselves not wanting to fight) and then the land will be ceded. I’m sure its much better if thousands more die first!

                  • 𝔊𝔦𝔫𝔧𝔲𝔱𝔰𝔲@lemmy.zip
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                    1 year ago

                    So Ukraine should just lay down their arms and let an authoritarian, borderline oligarchy like Russia have their way with the country?

                    Great logic bro. Can’t argue with that.

                • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Ceding land to a foreign aggressor is not a viable off-ramp. Get real.

                  This is nationalist rhetoric. Claiming to be a socialist and yet obsessing over the borders of one bourgeois state over another bourgeois state is one of the reasons you are being called a liberal here. You are a nationalist cheerleading for one group of billionaires to rule over the people instead of another group of billionaires, all while hundreds of thousands of people get killed in the name of that. Meanwhile socialists are out here saying we don’t want people dying and do not give a fuck what borders exist as long as people aren’t dying, the best solution is the quickest and fastest way to minimise death.

                  You are defending the state, not people’s lives. You are sacrificing people for states and borders. You are a bourgeois nationalist, and you would have advocated for the same thing in every past conflict. You’re not even a social chauvinist and they were shitbags, you’re just straight up nationalist.

                  • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    You are defending the state, not people’s lives.

                    Ironic when liberals act how they claim communists act. I mean I know it makes sense logically, that it’s all projection with scratched libs, but it’s still so weird to see in practice

                    I mean the Ukranians are doing suicidal infantry attacks against entranched positions with conscripts ffs, it’s just too on the nose

                • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Ok so why don’t you teach all us damn talkies a lesson and explain to us how you stop the war then other than libs usual line of Russia just gives up and goes home for no apparent reason.

                  Because currently either land changes hands at some point or everybody on one side dies and libs keep insisting the first option is a no go.

                  So please, inform us. We’re all very excited to hear what you have to say.

                • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  That’s what Lenin did and it saved countless lives. The Tsar kept feeding people into a meat grinder and the communists took power of the promise that they’d end the war, and they had to accept heavy concessions but they did it. Which position do you agree with, Lenin’s or the Tsar’s?

                • usernamesaredifficul [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  it’s an extremely viable off-ramp in fact that’s how the majority of wars have ended

                  as Ukraine have tried military force and it didn’t work then an outcome that doesn’t relly on the Russians just deciding to give up on the whole idea for no reason might be better alligned with reality

            • dolphin [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              This is why nobody likes you guys and wants to defederate with you.

              Yeah, all those people who dislike us are upvoting you right now.

        • 𝔊𝔦𝔫𝔧𝔲𝔱𝔰𝔲@lemmy.zip
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          1 year ago

          Do you seriously have to ask?

          This post wasn’t difficult to find.

          Acting as if ending the war is Ukraine’s responsibility, rather than one of the country engaging in a literal invasion.

          Anyone who doesn’t take the 2014 referendum with an extreme grain of salt is slotting nicely into Russia’s current playbook.

          I seriously don’t understand why so many of you dickride Russia, other than “west bad”. The current Russian government is antithetical to so many of the values you claim to champion.

          https://hexbear.net/comment/3865920

          Here’s another for the road.

          EDIT:

          Numerous comments people claiming that the Maidan Revolution was actually a US backed coup, with zero evidence provided outside of Kremlin and state operated mouthpieces of course.

          Possibly the most egregious yet: apparently the Bucha massacre was a hoax. Remember all those videos we saw of Russian soldiers gunning down unarmed civilians? Apparently they all must have been doctored, or were actually Ukrainian soldiers dressed up as Russian soldiers gunning down their own people.

          One of my close friends is a Ukrainian photographer/videographer who was among the first on the scene after the Russians left Bucha. You’ve very likely seen some of his photos before. I can only imagine the rage he’d feel if he were to read some of the bullshit that these comments are attempting to spread.

          Honestly, my opinion of HexBear has reached a new low after this thread. I used to be against defederation, but now I can at least understand why people don’t want to be associated at all with your instance.

          EDIT 2: This post was locally removed on HexBear. I think that says enough on its own.

          • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            So a post that highlights the many offramps to the current conflict, and describes how Ukraine can no longer “win” is Kremlin propaganda?
            The other is a post that describes that Ukraine has killed civilians in the Donbass under Zelensky, do you dispute this?

          • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            You claim that these are examples of “confirmed Kremlin propaganda”. What sources and/or authorities confirm the opinions contained in these posts as Kremlin propaganda?

          • SnAgCu [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            I see this one a lot.

            I seriously don’t understand why so many of you dickride Russia, other than “west bad”. The current Russian government is antithetical to so many of the values you claim to champion.

            Seriously, who? Who is “dickriding Russia because west bad”? The current state of Russia is the result of the USSR’s undemocratic dissolution and the subsequent shock doctrine, obviously it’s antithetical to our values. Everyone knows that. People aren’t being blinded by “west bad” - because they generally aren’t literal children who can only understand the world in terms of good guys and bad guys. What they’re doing is critically analyzing media and history.

            Hate to employ the dreaded whataboutism, but it seems to me this critique applies more to the opposite side. You say people are “Slotting nicely into Russia’s playbook”, “parroting Kremlin propaganda”. On their own, these are empty thought-terminators. You’re not concerned about understanding reality, just about making absolutely sure you’re 100% not on “Russia’s side” of this issue, because they’re the bad guys in this dichotomy.

            I seriously don’t understand why so many of you dickride the west, other than “Russia bad”. The current western governments are antithetical to so many of the values you claim to champion.

            • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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              1 year ago

              You guys say that but I’ve never seen a hexbear criticizing Russia or their side of the story, only accept it as gospel. You say you don’t do that but then blindly accept their time line for the Bucha massacre or pretend their reasons for attacking a sovereign nation are real or ignore a bunch of irregularities in their 2014 referendum voting. Russia leaving is apparently never an option when they talk about possible solutions, only Ukraine giving up territory. You say the world isn’t only good guys and bad guys but because when the things you guys say are actually analyzed, it’s obvious that it’s a lie. The west is bad, everyone else is less bad. Therefore in any thread with Ukraine, because the west is on their side, they are the bad guys. Even though Russia also has a corruption problem and Nazi problem and has a history of invading their numbers for decades. But they have the bigger military, so I guess all their neighbors have to give up their best territory to Russia for free and their citizens shouldn’t expect to do anything about it and the the rest of the world has to let them.

              Meanwhile, many of the people who criticize Russia in this attack don’t dickride the West at all and hate plenty of things about it and will say it in the same thread or tons of others. Like they should definitely decide whether they’ll fully support Ukraine or not, but we all know that to do that they’d have to get more support from their voters, which is often more difficult said than done, especially since Ukraine isn’t actually in NATO.

              • 🏳️‍⚧️Edward (it/its)@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                Russia leaving is apparently never an option when they talk about possible solutions

                Yes… it isn’t. Thats how reality works. Russia isn’t going to just up and leave. They aren’t going to have thousands of their own people killed and then just… nothing. They have goals, they want to meet them, and if not then at least get somewhat of a victory. The people in Russia aren’t going to like “oh, we just left”. I don’t fucking understand how people can say “the war ends when russia [just up and leaves]”. This isn’t fantasy land, that isn’t how it works. Russia will leave, if Ukraine negotiates a peace with them. If Russia wants land then UK has to negotiate for that not to happen.

                • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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                  1 year ago

                  A ton of people in Russia don’t care that much about the war. They’ve had protestors and even people who report their news and propaganda speak out about it. There’s no reason they should be there. They can easily leave, it’s very much an option. Now the Ukrainians are fighting for their homeland, so they have just as much a motivation to not give up either. But they also have support from the strongest military in the world.

                  I do hope they come to some sort of negotiation soon, but saying it never would have been this bad if Russia got everything they want from the beginning and the world stayed out is appeasement and we already know how that ends with the Nazis.

          • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago
            spoiler

            I seriously don’t understand why so many of you dickride Russia

            love how liberals manage to weave in casual homophobia whenever geopolitics comes up, you people make me sick

            It’s not because of blind allegiance to Russia or anything like that, people have positions counter to your narrative as the result of actually paying attention to events, as they’ve unfolded, over years.

            Impressive how mad you babies get when people don’t swallow the lies you’re peddling, expecting them to be taken as implicitly true or something.

            • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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              1 year ago

              Talk about swallowing lies after regurgitating Russian propaganda? You are all blinded yourself by your hate for the US that you are willing to deny massacres or genocides.

              • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                What Russian propaganda? I live in the US, I have more of a problem with my government than a government on the other side of the planet, no matter how scary the liberals try to make them sound.

                • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Are you serious? We just went through a ton of examples in the post above that we’re all replying to.

                  And it’s not even an exhaustive list. I’ve seen others parrot the idea that Ukraine was doing a genocide in Donbas, a Russian accusation without proof, for example. This is what I mean about you guys skeptical about every side of the story except for Russia’s.

                  Also, which side do you think the Russians are supporting in the US? Because it’s not the left…

                  • Also, which side do you think the Russians are supporting in the US? Because it’s not the left…

                    I frankly don’t care who the Russians are supporting politically in the US because their propaganda capacity is near insignificant. Also, the Democrats are a right wing political formation, they will fight to protect landlords and break strikes.

                  • Already read the post you linked with casual homophobia/misogyny in it, it’s wild how libs just let that rip as soon as it’s about a state enemy.

                    The Donbass has been getting shelled for almost a decade, and until recently it was pretty much entirely the work of the Ukrainian government.

                    The US is a world historic force of evil, can you blame us for not taking their propagandists at their word?

      • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        parroting what has been confirmed to be Kremlin propaganda

        Ah yes, Kremlin propaganda that is being spread around by… THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT!

        💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀