Cashless shops operating i̶l̶l̶e̶g̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ (legally) in Netherlands a̶n̶d̶ (but not) Belgium; corporate disobedience - eviltoast

(edit: title corrected thanks to @Ghoelian@feddit.nl’s info)

cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/1624944

Saw a “no cash” sign at a bakery. Conversation went like this:

me: So, no cash? What’s going on there?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to accept cash.

me: Isn’t it the other way around? Isn’t there a legal tender law in #Netherlands?

cashier: Yeah, we’re not allowed to refuse cash.

me: So this sign posting says loud and clear “we are breaking the law”, in effect, no? Is that not being enforced?

cashier: That’s right. It’s unenforced in Netherlands.

The same thing is happening in #Belgium. This kind of forces me to revise my understanding of European culture & norms. In both the US & Europe there is a culture of certain laws (rightfully) going unenforced against individual natural people. E.g. small amounts of marijuana possession. But I previously thought when it came to moral/legal people (businesses), they simply complied with the law in Europe to a great extent.

IOW, companies complied with laws in Europe. Contrast that with the US where corporations small and large will blatantly disregard any laws that interfere with profit based on the calculated risk of getting caught and risk of penalties.

I just wonder if Europe is being influenced by cavalier US corps and changing to comply only when penalties are likely. Or is this something I had wrong all along… that EU companies were always loose with compliance?

#WarOnCash

update

The original post was censored without reason by @knollebol4 @nlemmy.nl. It’s now a non-existent node, perhaps rightfully so if it’s going to use an anti-spam tool against ideas.

    • activistPnk@slrpnk.netOPNederlands
      1·
      1 year ago

      You do have control over this. You can still fuck up, that’s what the special bank account is for.

      What do you mean by “the special bank account”? No one can force a bank to accept their business. Even basic bank accounts have qualifications. Not that it matters because since you can’t deposit your cash into a basic bank account, you’re not in control anyway.

      Hence the basic bank account.

      If your money is in cash, that’s useless. And even if you can get it transferred, it’s still useless if you can’t find a bank that doesn’t impose closed-source software on you after that trend runs its course. Mortgage contracts in force today predate imposed smartphones w/big attack surfaces and were signed before the consumer could have predicted that.

      I did not know that. I can see why, though. Banks are already asking several euros per deposit because nobody likes dealing with large amounts of cash.

      It doesn’t matter what their excuse is. They’ve created situations where debtors cannot pay their debt despite having the money.

      That depends on how much cash you have.

      It does not.

      You can spend it on groceries

      Buying groceries does not pay your mortgage lender. So say you convert the cash into beer. Then what? You ask the mortgage lender if they can accept beer?

      or give it to someone else who can deposit it and send the money over to you from their bank account.

      LOL. I was shocked when I heard an energy supplier suggest this very same thing. I said “will you be my friend for 2 minutes, pay my bill, and accept my cash?” (silence).

      How can you seriously suggest that it’s okay to draft policy that relies on consumers having friends who aren’t also unbanked?

      We can’t change anything about Canada changing their laws.

      It’s not Canadian law. It’s international treaty between NL and Canada. NL agreed to it. Surely you don’t believe Canada has direct authority over Dutch banks.

      That’s not really our problem.

      It is your problem because Netherlands agreed to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and is bound by it.

      If the Canadian government tells its citizens they must use a monitored bank account and Dutch banks don’t play ball, then that’s a problem between you and the Canadian government.

      Not when you have human rights violations. The DUTCH bank under DUTCH law in this scenario is treating Canadians different than Australians (for example). It’s a human rights violation and the jurisdiction is Netherlands. Canada’s only role was to coerce the Dutch into violating the human rights of Canadians. The violation is at the hands of the Dutch who should have rejected the treaty.

      I’m not sure what human right is being breached here. You, as a Canadian, with a registered address, have the same rights as everyone else

      Same human rights, yes, but getting different treatment under Dutch law. That is the problem.

      International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

      Article 26:

      “All persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this respect, the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.”

      (emphasis mine)

      If you’re borrowing money from someone, they can state their terms and it’s up to you to accept them

      Article 25 ¶1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

      “Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”

      So you have lenders pass through human rights violations (via forced but unequal banking) onto Canadians who undertake to secure housing under article 25. When the bank discriminates against Canadians and the mortgage lender imposes forced banking by contract, the human rights violations are also at the hands of the mortgage lender.

        • activistPnk@slrpnk.netOPNederlands
          1·
          1 year ago

          It sucks to be a convicted terrorist or money launderer

          Or merely to be suspect of financial crime because of a cryptocurrency operation. Banks are extremely skiddish and it’s far easier to marginalize someone than to take on risk for someone maintaining an account worth less than 5 figures.

          They will also deny you a basic account if you already have another account. So e.g. if your bank imposes a broken app on you and you need to bounce, you must first close the account you have before you can open the basic account. That means cashing out. But you cannot deposit your cash in the new account because it’s “basic”.

          You don’t have the right to use exclusively open source software.

          Indeed, that’s the problem. You’re endorsing that problem.

          Luckily, various banking apps work fine on LineageOS.

          Running a FOSS platform does not make the apps the run on it open source. Those various banking apps all have spyware in them.

          Or you can use a bank account that just requires a browser and the free code validator they mail to you, no need to buy a smartphone.

          As I think I mentioned, there was a website & a counter service. Now there is only an app. Get the app or get locked out. Or walk. Those are the choices. Banks have a right to pull the plug on whatever service they want. They can impose iOS if they want.

          The debtor created that situation themselves

          Certainly not. The debtor has zero control over their place of birth. The BANK had a choice. The bank chooses whether to show customers in the oppressed group the door, or to report their activity. You can say the consumer has a right to renounce their nationality, but then you’re just infringing on another human right.

          If you can’t get any bank account, not even a basic bank account, you’ve fucked up bad.

          Simply being born in the wrong place can get you denied service at 8 banks. Being born in the wrong place cannot be regarded as a “fuck up“.

          Quite simple: your financial situation isn’t my problem if you want to do business with me.

          So you finally acknowledge inability to solve the problem. Great. But you don’t seem to give a shit about equal treatment & people being marginalized. This does not help your position.

          In that case, any troubles you have for not having a bank account should be quickly resolved by a judge, shouldn’t they?

          You overestimate the power of human rights. Human rights violations occur in high numbers and are rarely enforced. It’s improving but 2023 is not a good time to have your human rights violated.

          If the monitoring is bad enough to be considered a human rights violation, I doubt the banks will let the legislation stand.

          Banks don’t get to overturn law. They are also pushovers. They choose to violate human rights because it’s the easy path and human rights are mostly symbolic & rarely enforced, especially when they have the guidance and backing of the gov.

          I don’t see the relevance. Whether you’re born Dutch and have a secondary citizenship in Canada or whether you’re a Canadian who gained Dutch citizenship, you’re still treated the same.

          No you are not. In one of those cases, your birthplace is known as Canada. In the other case the birthplace is Netherlands and the bank has no reason based on required paperwork to think someone was naturalized in Canada. It’s also strange how you tried (and failed) to cherry pick a dual nationality case. When you have an oppressed group, you can always find two people outside of that group who are treated the same. You only need to find one person inside the marginalized group and one outside to prove a UDHR art.1 breach.