It’s perfectly fine to be a “feminine” man. Young men do not need a vision of “positive masculinity.” They need what everyone else needs: to be a good person who has a satisfying, meaningful life.
That makes as much sense as saying trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity.
trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of positive masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity
Of course it makes sense to have a concept of these things, but the point is that it is not helpful to define these things with positive or negative values, but rather to look consider these things independent from one another.
no matter how positively you define a gender role, it will negatively impact those who struggle with conforming to said roles. So I say it is preferable to define masculinity (or gender in general) without any value judgement.
I hate gender roles and assigning anything to them. But everybody deserves a positive view of the traits and ideals they identify with and everybody deserves positive examples of how to express/demonstrate the traits and ideals they identify with.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life. Identifying and identifying with traits you have or aspire to is almost certainly the same, and even if it isn’t I have no place to say that someone else shouldn’t think about themselves primarily as being a reproductive male (which may be devastating if that’s not something they can do), and since that is a common way to see oneself, due to the importance of reproduction or due to culture or due to some aesthetic like which flavors go together, then people identifying with masculinity deserve positive views of it, and positive examples of how to express it.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender “check boxes”, and come down on others to follow them.
I think this is precisely what gender roles are supposed to do.
Do young men really pursue masculinity because it truly matches with the people they are or do they do that because of the benefits of being ‘masculine’? You’ll enjoy respect, authority, a certain sex-appeal, confidence… And if you challenge gender norms you’ll experience the opposite. You’re gonna be treated more like a women.
And that’s the reason why masculinity is appealing to young men. And I feel like this is fundamentally problematic. I don’t think the individual traits are bad (as you said, responsibility, physical fitness etc), it is the expectations and privileges attached to masculinity.
The broadcast to others is the point I’m targeting.
Keep your own list and enjoy it. Just don’t expect it out of others, perhaps aside from your SO, and even that would only be a temporary thing, or a vehicle for discussion about changes in their life.
There is an extreme pressure for boys and men to be masculine.
It is like a radio so strong it interferes with any other radio station. There is so much discrimination you face as a ‘feminine’ man.
In this context it feels odd to say ‘mind your own business’
That makes as much sense as saying trans, non-binary people only need to have a satisfying, meaningful life without a vision of masculinity, femininity, or gender Identity.
you left out the “positive” in your analogy:
Of course it makes sense to have a concept of these things, but the point is that it is not helpful to define these things with positive or negative values, but rather to look consider these things independent from one another.
No. Gender Identity isn’t zero sum. Things can be positive without other things being negative.
no matter how positively you define a gender role, it will negatively impact those who struggle with conforming to said roles. So I say it is preferable to define masculinity (or gender in general) without any value judgement.
I hate gender roles and assigning anything to them. But everybody deserves a positive view of the traits and ideals they identify with and everybody deserves positive examples of how to express/demonstrate the traits and ideals they identify with.
Noticing more smells and colors and flavors and sounds and being able to listen to more complicated music are all skills that we gain over our life. Identifying and identifying with traits you have or aspire to is almost certainly the same, and even if it isn’t I have no place to say that someone else shouldn’t think about themselves primarily as being a reproductive male (which may be devastating if that’s not something they can do), and since that is a common way to see oneself, due to the importance of reproduction or due to culture or due to some aesthetic like which flavors go together, then people identifying with masculinity deserve positive views of it, and positive examples of how to express it.
Great analogy here. It’s sth that I didn’t find the right words to explain for.
Only if you broadcast your list of gender “check boxes”, and come down on others to follow them.
Everyone is free to pursue whatever makes them feel happy and whole, so long as that collection of traits does not direct impact other’s lives.
Like if my chosen trait is “responsibility and physical fitness”, that has no inherent impact on anyone else.
Everyone should be encouraged or coached to pursue what’s right for them, not what’s right for someone else.
I think this is precisely what gender roles are supposed to do.
Do young men really pursue masculinity because it truly matches with the people they are or do they do that because of the benefits of being ‘masculine’? You’ll enjoy respect, authority, a certain sex-appeal, confidence… And if you challenge gender norms you’ll experience the opposite. You’re gonna be treated more like a women. And that’s the reason why masculinity is appealing to young men. And I feel like this is fundamentally problematic. I don’t think the individual traits are bad (as you said, responsibility, physical fitness etc), it is the expectations and privileges attached to masculinity.
The broadcast to others is the point I’m targeting.
Keep your own list and enjoy it. Just don’t expect it out of others, perhaps aside from your SO, and even that would only be a temporary thing, or a vehicle for discussion about changes in their life.
There is an extreme pressure for boys and men to be masculine. It is like a radio so strong it interferes with any other radio station. There is so much discrimination you face as a ‘feminine’ man. In this context it feels odd to say ‘mind your own business’
My original clearly is describing a goal state.
Edit especially the last line.
Edit.edit beyond that, the comment I replied to was discussing if gender roles can ever be positive. Ever.
To which I provided a scenario where they could. (focused on not imposing that “list” on others)