So there’s this international student from China in my class and she constantly spreads misinformation about the PRC and its history. She basically bootlicks Western propaganda 24/7. She’s also politically active in numerous student organizations and travels back to China frequently, which leads me to believe she and/or her family and friends are up to no good over there as well. Should I report her to the 12339 website of the MSS?
Why is this ignorance upvoted?
Shame on this liberalism. Shame on your cowardice, your weak will.
1 month old account and already spreading nonsense.
Are we that full of anarcho-liberals who think good things and bad things are exactly the same, all cops are bastards and government and authority are bad that we just accept “snitching” is bad?
No. Reporting counter-revolutionaries and liberals is good when done to socialist authorities.
Do you think a revolution will succeed or endure in the face of external attempts at overthrow, pressure, etc without snitching? Without reporting liberalism? Counter-revolutionaries? Traitors? etc. Of course not.
Why then do you hate China? Why do you hate an in-power communist party? Why then do you take the position that there is harm to socialism, to communist parties, to the global proletariat from reporting backwards, anti-social, improper, and treasonous behaviors? Should people not be held to account?
Do you think counter-revolution springs out of thin air? How do you think the events of June 4th occurred? Did they materialize out of nowhere? Or was there a build-up of exactly this kind of person, this kind of thinking, forming networks, organizing, etc. How do you think terrorism and CIA spy rings operate but through people like this, their friends, their acquaintances, family they pressure or trick into revealing info. Every little piece of information is helpful for understanding the whole, the puzzle. For building leads, understanding relationships, uncovering persons of interests.
Do you seriously think that a western citizen who reports an overseas Chinese citizen to the PRC will help China? It will draw unnecessary attention because it will make it look like China is somehow “recruiting spies” in the US. This girl is probably just some rich kid who loves the west. Have you never seen them before? Have you even left your room and interacted with the outside world? There are plenty of people from China abroad that criticize the shit out of the government. The Chinese government doesn’t give a shit about small fries like them cuz they’re powerless to actually effect any change. Are you even thinking dialectically? Or do you think you’ll get some reward from the Chinese gov’t for doing such a thing? WTF are you on about??
The west will claim this regardless of reality. We live in a post-factual world by-and-large in this regard, so it doesn’t matter IMO.
As for the girl being small fries, probably. It honestly doesn’t really matter much. But a comprador is a comprador, it may not matter much but it’s the little things in life (like helping a society drive out its libs) which make life all the sweeter. What disadvantage with all this in mind, is there? Maybe, just maybe there is the chance of good coming out of it- the chance of anything negative is negligible, and then there’s the personal satisfaction angle to consider as well.
Snitching on an international student will not help China drive out it’s liberals. China has a bourgeois class operating in full public view. China will drive out liberals by developing it’s relations and forces of production and transitioning to a higher stage of socialism.
The potential disadvantages are many. Including (1) ruining a naive young person’s life for no reason (2) putting yourself and the girl on the five eyes’ radar just to cosplay a cold war spy and (3) substantiating (Chinese) liberals’ claims that communists are aUthoRitArian.
Agreed with the first paragraph, and with point #2 on the second. As to this girl being “young and naive” or anything substantiating claims that commies are “authoritarian” though- I don’t expect anything would come of it unless she were actually up to no good. I have been young and naive myself, but that did not change the fact my actions could cause harm, and also consequences upon myself.
And when it comes to “authoritarianism”- apart from that said claims would be made regardless of the fact, why should we care what Chinese or western liberals think? They’ve already made up their minds, and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists if they ever become willing to change their minds as well. Capitalist countries certainly keep a close eye on leftist, particularly communist, and any minority organizations, because they’re trying to protect their economic system, abhorrent as it is. And AES countries absolutely do, and should do the same- it is in the interest of any state, any ideological grouping, to do so, and to shirk from it out of some misguided libertine ideals will simply invite disaster, and is not a mercy that will ever be returned in kind. But I repeat- I don’t expect anything to come of this even if she were reported, unless she were genuinely up to no good. Anyone with the sense to see it can see China is not some totalitarian place, as you said, there are even bourgeoisie operating in public view- and in many ways China could be said to be freer than the west, in large part due to the cracking down on and actual consequences for bourgeois liberals which does not exist in the west.
That’s a whole lot of assumptions, ad hominems and straight up insults. Reporting a student will not bring about a global revolution, get a grip. I’m not even going to bother responding to your rage-filled post.
Yeah that user is… uh, I’m speechless.
Speechless because you have no arguments? Just insults. See I can be abrasive, but I wouldn’t just call you a name, I’d call you something and then illustrate why you were wrong and why it fits, I’d bring arguments from my corner when making the point.
I couldn’t care less if you personally think she shouldn’t be reported. I probably wouldn’t bother myself due to the risks associated with contacting foreign intelligence. That’s not the point per se.
Because it changes nothing of the fact that “lol don’t be a snitch” is not a Marxist attitude and is one deserving of being called out and clowned on. Is not the attitude of a communist. It’s one that deserves rebuke and perhaps can give some food for thought.
Our goal is to smash our enemies and uphold friendly parties and defend revolutions, that includes those of our allies or for out of power Marxists in the west the actually existing socialist states. Take a different take on this situation, same girl is in trouble with US police, going to prison in the US for a few years over a crime they think they’ve got her cold on, I have evidence that could exonerate. I’d not bring it forward, I’d let her rot. You might call that hate. But isn’t shooting fascists (which no one here would argue with) hate? Isn’t that even more violent and liberty depriving? Isn’t having socialist police crowd control and detain liberals trying to do a color revolution hate by the same logic? How many steps removed before it’s okay? Where is the line drawn and by what logic?
All liberalism and anti-communism everywhere is a threat to communism and the proletariat everywhere. There are of course degrees. Do not assume I am saying that a fascist war criminal who has killed communists with his own hands and works for western intelligence is no worse than this girl or that she’s the same as the runner of a propaganda outlet that’s funded by NED. And there are degrees of response by in-power communist parties to these things. But the fact remains they are all threats, all can give way to the other, rise from one to the other, work with the other, etc and should not be categorically declared entirely different.
My point is if you people recoil in horror, cringe, cry, flinch, wring your hands at the prospect of some tiny, minor problems being created in some random self-hating Chinese liberal’s life (like questioning at the airport back home or electronic surveillance) because of her choices (informed choices by the way given she didn’t grow up in the western propaganda machine like me and many here). How on earth are you going to fight and win a revolution? How on earth could you defend a revolution? You’d let the lives of those who fought for a revolution be wasted.
Oh no, she might be sat in a room and grilled for a few hours (as tons of Chinese are by the US simply for their nationality), oh no she might never work for state industries or get into the party and those close to her might be given more scrutiny, the horror, the oppression. How could mean old me ruin her life like this!
Do you not see that from liberalism and fascism are the same. That from benign things like the type of bullshit this girl is alleged to be spouting grow counter-revolution, grow reactionary/fascist terror squads, terror attacks, murders of communists, sabotaging of labor movements, crushing of socialist countries. People like her had a hand in destroying the Soviet Union. The immense suffering of the Russian people is the exact kind of thing she and those like her, if victorious would bring to the Chinese people. The exploitation of children, the suicide rates, the plundering of the nation, it’s people, its resources. You stay your hand, you allow them latitude, you allow them to nibble away, to salami-slice away with slightly escalating tactics until the moment comes when their violence springs forth and unlike you they have no pity, they do not waver or hesitate or consider if it might hurt you or others.
I have love and pity in my heart for the proletariat, for my comrades. For billions of human beings whose lives socialism can improve. I do not have room for that for liberals like this, for self-hating traitorous people with poison in their veins and lies from their mouths. I don’t care to pathologize and muse on the psychology. They are impediments, they are enemies. They are not worth trying to fix when that time is so much better spent on unconvinced members of the proletariat.
Good luck with your revolution bro. gimme a shout out when it’s successful. hopefully nobody snitches on you LOLOLOLOILOL
Your anger and passion, while commendable, is misdirected. We’re not your enemies.
Who said you were my enemy? You were incorrect. There is room for correcting others within the bounds of friendship and camaraderie and I’d go as far as to say true comrades must correct each other.
I do apologize for coming off rather intensely but that’s mere sentiment and tone. The message I stand with.
Also it seems someone is upset in this thread. I was downvoted, you were downvoted in this reply. I don’t care either way but I want you to know I’m not downvoting this comment of yours.
I am not incorrect. Your whole premise rests on an assumption that you can tell if a State is “good”, benevolent and will last forever. What happens if the current communist party degrades and is replaced by another communist party or by a different faction within it? Uh oh, now you are someone who was a snitch for the previous government, perhaps even snitching on their comrades (they don’t know who you’ve snitched on). Now you’re labeled an informant and a suspicious character by the new communist party in power. That’s from a personal/pragmatic standpoint.
Now for the “collective” standpoint: Snitching is bad in all countries, socialist or not. If you live in a building with people and you inform on them, guess what? You’ll be excluded from all social life. You’ll just have to contact the police when you need a few extra chairs for a party you’re having, cause the neighbours aren’t gonna give it to you.
The aim of individualist liberalism is for us to have social contracts with the state and not with each other. I’d much rather people come to me directly if I’m doing something wrong (maybe I don’t know it’s wrong) than to have the police come knocking on my door. I’m sure that’s the same for most people. And what is the girl’s (in OP) “crime”? She expressed an opinion. She didn’t form an anti-Chinese group, she didn’t pass State secrets to the CIA, she didn’t have secret meetings at her home where they performed Falun Gong rituals…
Here’s some examples of snitching from the West:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/13/lockdowns-uk-true-character-nation-snitches-useless-leaders
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-covid-australians-snitching-neighbors.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pleasure-peril-snitching-pandemic-1.5544367
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-lockdown-snitches-thrive-in-europe-reports-watchmen-spying-neighbors/
People don’t snitch for noble causes like “protecting the revolution” or “guarding the State”, people snitch out of envy, or because it makes them feel in control or better than others. Call me a liberal all you want, but I don’t want to live in a country full of snitches.
I don’t downvote comments, only upvote or not.
Easily falsified. I hear someone being beaten by their SO or sexually assaulted. Rather than knock on their door and kindly ask them not to do that. I snitch. If I’m excluded because of that I don’t give a fuck.
Your mistake is assuming for some reason that I’m talking about writing daily reports on what people had for lunch, for every little human foible and problem they have like it’s my job. Let’s be clear, let’s get back to the issue because you’re being dishonest and moving the goalposts and discussion here. We were originally talking about a Chinese girl, college aged who is spreading lies, not like little being confronted by classmates and lying to not create tension but boastful bragging lies about her country, about the communist party and just generally being a traitor to her people and the revolution.
There is a world of difference between reporting someone like that. And I want to be clear, I am a committed person so if anyone were someone I thought was a danger to a socialist state, were trying to overthrow it, undermine it (and she is undermining it, the US has a strategy of containment, strangulation, decoupling, etc and it relies on spreading propaganda not that they need her help but they offer it), I think that’s worth reporting. If I lived in a building and people were conspiring against the in-power communist party and engaging in reactionary thinking I’d report that shit.
You apparently wouldn’t. You like most liberals would prefer a false peace. You prefer compromise over dedication and struggle. You and a disheartening amount of people in this thread prefer to preserve friendships and in the process betray Marxism, betray comrades who have given their lives. To deny, to stand down when asked to defend the revolution. To do anything to harm or inconvenience liberals.
Again, Mao has written about this. This is not new, you are not thinking of some brand new thing. I can’t speak to where you come from. Maybe you’re from a community where snitching is done to capitalist and racist powers but that doesn’t apply here anymore than hating on the police does. That’s an anarcho-liberal position. That’s a knee-jerk, unexamined, lacking will to use power position. That’s a lay down and be destroyed position.
I hope there are people unlike many in this thread when the time comes who have the resolve to actually act, to turn against their family if they are fascists, to turn against friends if they are our enemies. Otherwise they spit on the graves of the comrades who have come before and otherwise there is no point. Give up. We might as well scrap Marxism right now and try for voluntary friendship communism by means of electoralism and gradual reform under capitalism which as we know is not a path to success but attitudes like yours mean it’s the only way forward.
I am watching a genocide, helplessly. I’m protesting, but I’m not stopping it. It is being perpetrated by these types of liberals. Besides the objective, rational arguments which I have laid out, which many thinkers like Mao have laid out, there is the fact these people deserve what they get. You don’t get to laugh at the idea of cops being killed in the west or whatever else adventurist violence or happenstance and then duck and hide behind “oh that’s envy, oh that’s emotional” as if you’re not engaging in the same, as if tons of people here don’t do that.
Listen here. I have said this again and again and again and either you are in very bad faith OR I’m not being eloquent and expressing myself properly.
The west doing bad things is not the same as us doing good things. The west use authority to abuse and crush the workers, that does not mean as your liberal thinking would have it that we renounce authority or using it. The west uses police to crush workers. In a socialist state they are part of protecting the workers and once again we do not renounce them. Extend that logically to what we are talking about.
That said, I’m done. It’s like talking to a brick wall and I’m tired of bumping this thread to respond to people who are not presenting new or novel arguments, who are not presenting interesting points of view and who are not I think increasingly engaging in good faith or at least we’re on such different wavelengths there can be no conversation.
You’re really a debate bro aren’t you? lolololol
I doubt this person has actually interacted with people in the real world. To them snitching on this Chinese student/girl/whatever is just some sort of video game decision (like Skyrim or some shit). Completely idealistic and fucking stupid if you ask me.
the fact you liken this to a fucking videogame betrays how deeply unserious you are.
touch grass please I am begging you. Just go outside, vitamin D is good for you.
And I don’t even necessarily disagree with you, just everyone involved in this whole thing are cringe as fuck
Did you even read my comment? What are you even talking about? I was talking about that other person, and the fact that they aren’t serious and need to touch grass. That’s why I likened it to a video game, to show how deeply unserious THEY are. Jesus fucking christ the lack of analysis from the western left. No wonder the fash is going to win. We got dumbasses whose first instinct is to snitch cuz they think they’re roleplaying as revolutionaries. And when someone (me) points out how idealitic and video game like that is, I get told I’m unserious? Seriously? Jesus fucking christ…
No I called you unserious because you’re digging up a minor disagreement and bad post that someone already got raked over the coals for in their original post, this is just petty drama farming and vague posting. You are acting just as childish as they were if not moreso
Well your take upsets me. It is wrong, dangerous and like all liberalism should be called out.
Global revolution. What a flippant, ridiculous response. What a myopic response. That the only things worth doing are those that immediately smash that communism button, that global communism button and if things don’t do that they’re not worth doing. People with that thinking have been backstabbing and sabotaging real gains for the proletariat for a hundred years. You want to leap to the finish line but that’s not how it works. You want magic not Marxism, you want tolerance for counter-revolution, for the people who commit genocides, who subjugate the working class, who commit a thousand horrible, mind-tearing horrors upon humanity under their system.
They had made their bed, let them reap the consequences. My pity is for the workers.
Idealism is an infection you must fight. If you want to object to the idea that China needs this info, go ahead, I agree that’s debatable though I think no modern spy agency is ever going to say “too much info” in the computerized age where plotting networks of people and interactions, metadata is the primary way of understanding and finding targets of real interest (NSA for example mainly scrapes and saves metadata, not content, but relationships, times, people, places). But that’s not what you said, what you said was that snitching was bad. Steps, process. What are they? What is historical development? What is building things slowly but surely? What is guarding the revolution? What is countering liberalism at every step and why must we do that? Why must we not allow a bit of liberalism to remain in stock people like you claim, what harm can it cause. An individual is only part of a group that becomes a whole. An individual liberal is not a threat, a group of liberals are but one cannot arrest just the group while leaving the individuals on their way, one cannot surveil the group without the individuals.
How does revisionism and counter-revolution start anyways? It starts with making little allowances, with giving an inch, with saying “oh what’s the harm of this person or that” until they’re everywhere and until the structure is rotten and the USSR’s collapse is what you get.
Mao’s “Combat Liberalism” has some good thoughts on this subject.
I made a general post against snitching, you then went on and made a bunch of assumptions:
That’s a leap, isn’t it. I hate snitching therefore I hate China and its communist party. lol what?
That’s what you said!
You didn’t specify which revolution, so I assumed you’re talking about a global revolution.
Then you go on to make more assumptions:
I want all that because I think snitching is bad?
You don’t want a discussion, and you’re not answering sincerely. You saw an opportunity to virtue signal and rant about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me or what I said.
Bet you that person couldn’t even organize the documents on their desk, let alone a global revolution. That person sounds like a future George Orwell to me not gonna lie… Or maybe they’re just some edgy 15 year old genzdong’er debatebro