Want a 3D printer in New York? Get ready for fingerprinting and a 15 day wait - eviltoast

cross-posted from: https://ttrpg.network/post/4222671

Want a 3D printer in New York? Get ready for fingerprinting and a 15 day wait

Assembly Bill A8132 has been assigned a ā€œSame Asā€ bill in the Senate: S8586 [NYSenate.gov] [A8132 - 2023]

I donā€™t own a gun, I never have and I donā€™t plan to at any time in the future. But if these pass in the NYS Senate and Congress, it would be required to submit fingerprints for a background check then wait 15 days, before you could own any ā€œCOMPUTER OR COMPUTER-DRIVEN MACHINE OR DEVICE CAPABLE OF PRODUCING A THREE-DIMENSIONAL OBJECT FROM A DIGITAL MODEL.ā€

This isnā€™t even going to stop any crimes from happening, for pity sakes regular guns end up in criminal charges all the time, regardless of background check laws. How about some real change and effective measures, rather then virtue-signaling and theater illusion for a constituency?

  • SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    This is the crap your average gun owners have to deal with all the time. And with similar results for crime prevention, which leads to more and more hoops as legislators try more of the same.

    All because they genuinely donā€™t understand the subject matter or donā€™t care but want to appeal to people who also donā€™t know. Remember the ā€œthis is a ghost gunā€ speech?

    Welcome to the shitshow, Iā€™m truly sorry youā€™re here. I just want to enjoy 3D printed doodads and neat non-printed range toys in peace.

    • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      Not entirely a fair comparison. Gun owners might have to deal with some extra process in the acquisition of a tool explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds. There is a good reason why some of those hoops might be tied to ā€œcrime preventionā€. Because it is a tool remarkably well suited for itā€¦

      Adding such loops for 3D printers would make as much sense as for a bag of sand, because you could drop it on someoneā€¦ But thatā€™s not what itā€™s used forā€¦ and the extra hoops should be in proportion.

      edit: Have I stumbled on some gun-loving easily offended part of lemmy? Letā€™s see some congruent argument against anything I wrote. I encourage it. Be a brave snowflake.

      • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        10 months ago

        By this logic, you should also have to jump through those same hoops to get things that can be used to create with minimal experience said tools explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds, or: this bill.

        Sure, guns were ā€œdesigned to kill people,ā€ but A) so were swords and bows/arrows but those are legal and B) self defense is not morally wrong. Just like your bag of sand, guns can be misused to kill people illegally, but that is still a misuse. Of course, nobody is even advocating for NICs checks for other weapons, nor harder-than-NICs measures like quiver size restrictions or ā€œban assault (compound) bowsā€¦ā€

        • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          By this logic, you should also have to jump through those same hoops to get things that can be used to create with minimal experience said tools explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds, or: this bill.

          Nope. Not my argument in the slightest? Guns are made for it, have hoops for what itā€™s made for, especially when itā€™s used for stuff you donā€™t generally like. Have those be in proportion to that. Conceptually, this should be easy enough to understand, and it just describes the foundation for the argument of what is a ā€œreasonable hoopā€, when it comes to ā€œcrime preventionā€. Thatā€™s whatā€™s being discussed here no? I responded to someone arguing that gun owners need to go through ā€œsimilar hoopsā€. To which I only called BS on it being in the same ballpark.

          Simplifiedā€¦ ā€œWhat is a reasonable measure, regarding purchase of X, when it comes to what that measure, can help with problem Y.ā€

          Place X=ā€œcarsā€, and Y=ā€œcar related deaths and injuriesā€, sureā€¦ I can see some hoops there making sense. Americans seem fine with the concept of a driverā€™s license.

          Place X=ā€œgunsā€, and Y=ā€œcrime / gun violenceā€, yeahā€¦ I can see some level of hoops making some sense. (Iā€™d suggest a lot more,ā€¦ but that would offend too many over there)

          Place X=ā€œ3d printerā€ and Y=ā€œcrime / gun violenceā€ā€¦ my argument: It doesnā€™t make much sense at all..

          You seem to think that my argument was to suggests hoops on X, based on the maximum capability of X, when it comes to Y. I donā€™t know why you would think that, because I said that it must be in the correct proportion to the problem at hand. A bag of sand can be used to cause injury. But if what you want is to ā€œreduce injuriesā€, you donā€™t restrict access to bags of sand. You can revisit that once you start having a bag-of-sand-causing-injury-problem. Similarly, if you want to reduce ā€œgun violence / crimeā€, you donā€™t restrict ā€œaccess to 3d printersā€. I have a hunch that normal guns outnumber 3d printed guns, in crimes, at least at a generous 10000000:1. And you can make a better one with a metal tube and some welding. Henceā€¦ ā€œnot in the same ballparkā€. Which is why you also donā€™t need any hoops to buy a kitchen knife.

          So, either you are arguing the same point as me, or you didnā€™t get my point.

          (PS: Thereā€™s also a third option of disagreeing with my argument, in which case you would believe the hypothetical that if 3D printing technology was removed from existence, that it would reduce crime, or whichever Y is in question. Thatā€™s the loosest possible hypothetical, which would be in your favor to argue.).

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            10 months ago

            stuff you donā€™t generally like.

            Not your point, but why donā€™t you like self defense? Or IDPA, USPSA, Skeet (lol), Cowboy Action, Biathlon, Hunting, or any other shooting sports?

            Tbf, even in this country, guns are used far more for those things than harming others (self defense included, as while it harms others it is necessary to do so in those instances to prevent death or great bodily injury to the victim, which is what justifies use of deadly force to begin with.)

            And no I disagree, if the printer allows me to print a hoffman lower at the push of a button, but that same lower would need a background check to be purchased from an FFL, I think they are similar enough to make the comparison. Itā€™s physically impossible to stop the torrents and other ways the .stl files are shared, the only way to do that would be to restrict the device itself. Furthermore a large subsect of 3d printer owners/buyers do so explicitely for the capability to print lowers (And Iā€™m one of them. Of course it is legal for me to do so and I only use them legally, so itā€™s fine, but still we exist.)

            Of course, I think itā€™s silly as well, but Iā€™m also not in favor of (at least recently/currently proposed) further gun legislation, soā€¦

            Place X=ā€œcarsā€, and Y=ā€œcar related deaths and injuriesā€, sureā€¦ I can see some hoops there making sense. Americans seem fine with the concept of a driverā€™s license.

            Yes we have those.

            Place X=ā€œgunsā€, and Y=ā€œcrime / gun violenceā€, yeahā€¦ I can see some level of hoops making some sense.

            Yes we have those too, NICs checks federally. States decide pointless feature bans or if the poors deserve rights too, and some are more permissive than others, but there are many regulations already.

            Place X=ā€œ3d printerā€ and Y=ā€œcrime / gun violenceā€ā€¦ my argument: It doesnā€™t make much sense at all..

            Actually ā€œghost guns,ā€ or ā€œ3d printed firearms,ā€ have been making more appearances at crime scenes as of late. The front-runner is still straw purchase but I wouldnā€™t be surprised to see 3d printed lowers outpacing stolen guns within 10yr without even banning sales to inflate that number. Makes just as much sense to restrict 3d printers due to misuse as it does guns, since they are increasingly directly related. OR we shouldnā€™t punish good guys with a gun3d printer for the actions of othersā€¦

            PS: Thereā€™s also a third option of disagreeing with my argument, in which case you would believe the hypothetical that if 3D printing technology was removed from existence, that it would reduce crime,

            Thereā€™s a fourth. I donā€™t believe reducing the number of guns nor 3d printers sold would even reduce crime, as they could instead 3d print a lower, or make a LutySMG, or mill an 80%, or buy a CNC mill, or abandon guns entirely for another weapon like the Boston Marathon. Iā€™m a gun and 3d printer enthusiast. I think the only thing that will actually reduce crime is actually making this country better so less people want or need to commit crimes. Yes itā€™s harder than just using authoritarian control and violence to make others subject to your will, but also fuck that, Iā€™d rather we do the hard work than take the ineffective ā€œeasy way out.ā€

            I just also think itā€™s silly to think ā€œwe need to ban guns because easy to kill withā€ but not go the step further to ā€œand 3d printers, cnc mills, and home depot, because easy to make the thing that is easy to kill with.ā€ To me it feels a lot closer to ā€œno further legislation needed for either.ā€

            • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              Not your point, but why donā€™t you like self defense? Or IDPA, USPSA, Skeet (lol), Cowboy Action, Biathlon, Hunting, or any other shooting sports?

              Two logical fallacies here. Red herring, in that itā€™s not not relevant to the argument, and a straw-man, because the supposition of me not liking self defense is not stated by me, or implied.

              Thereā€™s a fourth. I donā€™t believe reducing the number of guns nor 3d printers sold would even reduce crime, as they could instead 3d print a lower, or make a LutySMG, or mill an 80%, or buy a CNC mill, or abandon guns entirely for another weapon like the Boston Marathon. Iā€™m a gun and 3d printer enthusiast. I think the only thing that will actually reduce crime is actually making this country better so less people want or need to commit crimes.

              Youā€™dā€¦ be surprised to find that this is in part the first one, and clearly the still the second, with yet another straw-man argument, this time only implied. Perhaps go through my argument again. It isnā€™t saying a single thing on the restriction on guns. There is a tiny commentary as to that effect, but please donā€™t confuse that with the argument presented.

              Other than that, I donā€™t see anything else that I need to comment on. Happy to oblige if you do relate it to my argument. The only relevant part, if I understood correctly, you suggest that for X=ā€œ3d printerā€ and Y=ā€œgun crimeā€ thatā€¦ there might be a basis for some restrictions? But then you say you donā€™t believe there should be restrictions thereā€¦ so, Iā€™m confused why you would argue both sides there. I assume your point is therefore: ā€œneither should be restricted, because if one should be, so should the otherā€ā€¦ something like that?

              So, a clarificationā€¦ for your sake here, so please to take this with good intentions. These are the relevant points I was making:

              • 3d printers shouldnā€™t be restricted with any hoops motivated by ā€œcrime mitigationā€
              • If it is desirable to reduce ā€œgun violenceā€, hoops that deal with ā€œgunsā€ vs ā€œ3d printersā€ are not in the same ballpark when it comes to what makes sense.

              The first one of those is clearly also your point. So, we agree on that one. But it seems you disagree with the second one. Is that the gist of what youā€™re saying? You object to the second point, in that if one should be restricted, the other makes similar sense, as to be in the same ballpark?

              Because if soā€¦ I find that strange.

              • No 3d printers => approx the exact same amount of gun violence.
              • No guns => approx. no gun violence.

              I donā€™t see how you could disagree with me, without also disagreeing with one or both of these. They seem like pretty obviously true statements to me.

              • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                10 months ago

                Guns are made for it, have hoops for what itā€™s made for, especially when itā€™s used for stuff you donā€™t generally like.

                This was the part in the comment I responded to where you implied you donā€™t like what guns are used for by outright stating it. Guns are used for murder in some instances, about 12,000 per year if weā€™re talking US, but theyā€™re used 100,000 per year here according to harvard for self defense, and while I donā€™t have a figure of how many times shooting sports happen within the countryā€™s borders I have to assume itā€™s even higher than that.

                So again, now that Iā€™ve pointed out exactly where the ā€œimplicationā€ you outright stated is, why donā€™t you like those things?

                It isnā€™t saying a single thing on the restriction on guns. There is a tiny commentary as to that effect,

                Your ā€œtiny commentaryā€ is part of your argument, not only is it there but it informs your argument from the outset. Those not in favor of further legislation on firearms donā€™t often talk about further restricting firearms, nor how something that can very easily make firearms is ā€œactually different.ā€ In fact, most pro gun people use 3d printers as an example of partly why further restrictions would be ineffective at best or abused for maximum bans at worst.

                Other than that, I donā€™t see anything else that I need to comment on. Happy to oblige if you do relate it to my argument.

                Just keeeep moving those goalposts and avoiding my argument.

                But then you say you donā€™t believe there should be restrictions thereā€¦ so, Iā€™m confused why you would argue both sides there.

                Youā€™ll still continue ignoring it, but my point is if restrictions make sense for one they make sense for the other, as ā€œthe otherā€ can be used to create the ā€œone.ā€ Just as guns can be used for murder but shouldnā€™t be, 3d printers can be used to make guns that can be used to murder, but shouldnā€™t be.

                Rather than restrict the items we should make the misuse itself illegal, like how we donā€™t ban booze but we do ban driving drunk or beating your wife because youā€™re drunk.

                • okamiueru@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  I see. I should have been clearer. You went from seeing this statement by me:

                  Gun owners might have to deal with some extra process in the acquisition of a tool explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds

                  To then this next reply by me:

                  By this logic, you should also have to jump through those same hoops to get things that can be used to create with minimal experience said tools explicitly capable of sending projectiles at lethal speeds

                  Nope. Not my argument in the slightest? Guns are made for it, have hoops for what itā€™s made for, especially when itā€™s used for stuff you donā€™t generally like.

                  And then reading that the it in ā€œGuns are made for itā€ is referring to crimeā€¦ and not ā€œsending projectiles at lethal speedsā€, and that ā€œwhen itā€™s used for stuff you donā€™t generally likeā€ is something other than ā€œcrimes / gun violenceā€? I might be wrong here. Itā€™s hard to understand how it is you are reading it, that is different from what is clarified so many times.

                  In any case, I donā€™t think we think sufficiently in the same way in order to have any hopes of a productive conversation. The stuff Iā€™ve written is congruent enough that you should be able to get my point, if you either read it enough times, or ask a friend. To help you along: this doesnā€™t mean that I expect you to agree with me, but at least you know what it is you would be disagreeing with.

                  Just keeeep moving those goalposts and avoiding my argument.

                  You have to state your arguments in a way that are relevant to my arguments. Which requires you to first understand my arguments. Iā€™m not avoiding your arguments, Iā€™m just ignoring them because they are not relevant to my arguments. I hope you see the difference. Not addressing a red herring is ignoring something irrelevant to the original premise.

                  I will not reply to anything beyond this. (Again, this is meant as a courtesy. I donā€™t want to waste your time). Have a good one.

                  • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                    10 months ago

                    By all means donā€™t respond, but itā€™s adorable that you act so high and mighty while also throwing jabs you perceive as intelligent enough to not be rude as hell, (Iā€™m giving you the benefit of the doubt that youā€™re not intentionally a dick.)

                    Though, implications abound, I likely shouldnā€™t give you that benefit, as it would track with the rest of your imply-then-deny strategy.

        • dual_sport_dork šŸ§šŸ—”ļø@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          And you donā€™t even need a background check to buy a black powder firearm. Walk into your local Cabelaā€™s with a couple of hundred bucks, walk out with one ready to shoot. If youā€™re old enough to grow a beard they probably wonā€™t even ask to check your ID to see if youā€™re over 18.

          The ATF has repeatedly stated theyā€™re not interested in regulating these ā€œhistoricalā€ items. Never mind swords and bows, a lot of men have been put in pine boxes by a sloppily cast ball of lead coming out of a Patterson or a Remington. Just, probably mostly between the years of 1836 and 1901.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            10 months ago

            Hell, you can order those online, no ID check required. Even as a child assuming you can steal the cash, pop into the store with the cash, buy an amex gift card worth over the total price+tax+ship, boom, gun-to-door. Can easily make your own black powder too (though that bit is time consuming), and cast your own lead balls.