I recently made a post about this topic but it caused a lot of controversy. I did not specify and used the broad term of sex work which probably made the interpretations so varied. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to focus on work that is consensual because obviously human trafficking or coercive sex is inherently wrong and exploitative. Some people even said that sex work is not valid labor which I personally found strange. I’m personally not a fanboy of the sex industry at all, but most people involved would say that the illegality of it exacerbates the bad situation that they find themselves in, and I cannot personally find a reason to be going against what the people involved are saying. And yeah it probably wouldn’t exist under socialism but at the same time, I think it is a huge mistake to go in with an iron fist and just say “I’m going to make everyone stop sex work right this instant because it’s not socialist” because this does not treat the underlying causes of it, which will only make it spring back up anyway.
And I’m not just expecting one type of answer but if I am making an error in applying dialectical materialism or Marxism-Leninism please let me know.
Please, try and engage honestly with all of what I have said in the paragraph you are referencing. It’s all right there at the top of my post. Act in good faith. Thanks.
What did I say? Did I say right now? Did I say under capitalism? No. I said under socialism. I said under socialism after their material needs have been met, they aren’t going to lose a home or food, or medical care for sake of ceasing to do this “work”. I said after not only that but intervention, therapy, re-education. If both of those things fail you have people willingly engaging in anti-social behavior, they’ve been brainwashed by communists (do you know the origin of brain washing? It literally means to wash the brain, to wash out the lies, to capitalists and imperialists who were frightened by their soldiers in Korea being woken up to what they were doing of course they’d conflate it with indoctrination, I don’t hold it against you that you use it that way, many people do, but I did want to point it out as it’s an interesting fact), that is cleansed of indoctrination while being provided for and they still choose to defy the line we’ve set, then and only then does anything happen. That is extremely lenient, extremely caring, we are under my proposal taking great pains to avoid having to be harsh. We are doing everything we can to materially meet needs, and educate. But you must understand. There is a tiny fraction of the population who refuse re-education. Who refuse to be deprogrammed of the old superstructure, of old social structures.
To address the second part briefly. I am engaging in a conversation with people who take as a given that pimps and men profiting off women selling sex is bad. I am engaging in a conversation with people who deflect with, well it was the woman’s choice, it wasn’t men, she likes it, she chose it. Etc. My post does go over men but it is huge as you can see no doubt. I didn’t want to pad it out going over something everyone already agrees with and I really do not appreciate your insinuations towards me which are little more than personal attacks and cheap shots from someone who has no argument to offer.
Women perpetuate misogyny and this must be recognized and dealt with in any conversation where people pull out token women to excuse something. Men are primarily responsible, overwhelmingly responsible for misogyny and patriarchy and upholding it with incredible violence. It is their job, their fault and I expect them as comrades to shoulder primary responsibility which includes not perpetuating things like what we are discussing. However we cannot ignore in desiring to abolish it that there are women who will resist us actively, who will aid, abet, and join with those men seeking to uphold it. And this conversation got into that territory. And I have addressed their existence as best I could in brief without getting bogged down into a dissertation on the matter.
Absolutely men and people of other genders engage in sex work and prostitution. However it is a primarily women’s issue and it is from that perspective of feminism and women’s rights I address it. I do not want to distract from the fact prostitution was not built and is not a structure primarily of oppression to men, LGBTQ+ people, etc, that any such oppression came later, often as part of, ancillary too the structure of patriarchy and misogyny. Overwhelmingly women are those who do it and men are those who consume it. That includes trans women and the issue of trans-misogyny by the way. Fetishization, degradation, de-humanization. Trans-women are women and women are not your fetish or kink they are people my friend. That said, if one were to abolish it only among women and leave men and other genders in it, you’d have the same issues I raised which would form around them. So don’t think I favor only saving women. I am talking about snatching back human sexuality from capitalism and this vile industry.
Oh my fucking god I just wrote out a big huge thoughtful response to what you said and to your other comments AND IT ALL GOT DELETED FUCK.
Ugh I really cannot bring myself to type it all up again but I definitely want to say: I wasn’t trying to engage in bad faith, and I’m sorry if I came off as inflammatory, I wasn’t trying to attack you but the language of your posts rubbed me the wrong way. Either way I do owe you an apology for that so my bad.
I went back and more carefully read through all of your posts. Over all, I definitely agree with your positions in general on exploitation, abuse, objectification, etc. I just disagree that the focus on sex work will ameliorate all of those problems as women and others are objectified and abused outside of sex work, that abuse wouldn’t stop if sex work were to stop, violence will be perpetrated in other ways. To me addressing misogyny is the bigger fish to fry as that could either make sex work obsolete, or make it into something safe where people can engage in it with actual consent and agency. But we have no idea what the outcome would be until we are in a position where the impositions of capitalism and the patriarchy are addressed. Also I did appreciate your points about women and misogyny and that got me thinking about women being willing accomplices to men in trying to perpetuate violent oppression against women in order to be “not like the others”. I also appreciated your point about treating a hobby as a job and that’s something I want to think about, and learn more about necessary vs unnecessary labor.
This kinda feels like an insinuation that I don’t think trans women are women and that’s not my position. I mentioned “people of different genders”, I didn’t single out trans women in that sentence.
edit: another thought: so I definitely believe that the voices of sex workers should be front and center in these conversations, but under communism, generally, it would be the voice of the greater majority that would dictate what is and isn’t good for the group, right? I would assume that the majority of sex workers would want to abolish it since many are forced either by another individual or by economic circumstance. In that case we can absolutely do without it, and that small minority that engage in it because they just enjoy it, should be able to sacrifice it for the betterment of the community.
Double edit: eesh I went back and re-read my comment and yeah that was a rude ass comment, embarrassing
It’s a lovely lemmy bug. I’ve had to teach myself, never stop to vote on things elsewhere or kiss your typing goodbye, also hope the thread being updated with a new comment doesn’t bork things.
I never said any particular focus on sex work is needed. I am not seeing sex work as this great big threat at the forefront some people seem to presume I am saying it as. I am simply pointing out, the Marxist position on sex work. Sex work perpetuates misogyny. You cannot abolish misogyny without abolishing it. People act like because I push back against the notion with vigor that this is okay and guys can guilt free have sex with women for money, that I’m spending all my time seething at sex workers, that I have a little book and it’s numbered enemies of women and the proletariat and at the top in red underlined 5 times with angry faces is sex work and that’s simply not the case. It is a common point of liberal infiltration in thinking I think. It’s not perhaps the most common one in the western left, but it’s up there and it really seems to stir some passions and not for wrong reasons.
I am not interested in trying to make anyone trying to survive under capitalism feel bad. I am simply stating the Marxist, feminist position on what must come after. I am attacking those who insist one of the following: a) that it is okay to pay for sex, comrades do not do that, if a woman is in need of money and in that industry and you can afford to pay her, you can afford to give her the money as aid, b) that sex work is not problematic, it’s totally feminist and should and will exist after the revolution. Which is false, dangerous, misleading.
There are those who perpetuate these things out of ignorance, genuine misogyny, material self-interest, and guilt and who are quite insistent upon spreading this frankly incorrect thinking that is damaging, dangerous, wrong, and perpetuates misogyny as I have outlined at length.
Now, frankly I have to say I’ve by this point said my piece (at great length) and I don’t think further conversation is likely to alter my thinking, change your mind, or the minds of on-lookers. So I hope this has been constructive and perhaps educational as I will not be replying further here. Thanks and good luck.
I see what you’re saying. I didn’t intend to make you feel that you needed to explain yourself in the way you did here; I think after reading through your comments again I understood much more clearly where you were coming from, and I appreciate you expanding on that even further for my benefit. My mind isn’t changed completely, but you do make very good points that I’d like to reflect on. I also wasn’t under the impression that you were trying to make anyone feel bad, and I’m sorry if I came off that way after this last response. I think a lot of my questions and statements were more rhetorical, I wasn’t trying to challenge you or change your mind, genuinely. Sometimes the way I express myself can come off more confrontational than it’s meant to be (to the exclusion of my first comment to you that was a dick comment and I feel bad for that). Anyway I respect the disengagement, and I appreciate your effort especially if it was frustrating for you, wish it wasn’t