Passing referendums is very difficult in Australia. People are easily scared away from change with emotional arguments unless there is a very clear message and benefit and I think the voice proposal was lacking. The only reason I voted Yes was to show solidarity with indigenous Australians and to oppose some of the ugly characters and lies coming from the No campaign. Try as I could reading the Uluru statement and other supporting arguments I couldn’t get excited about it and I can understand why people on the fence would reject constitutional change.
The government should put as much as they can into legislation and be satisfied and I think we should move on.
Unfortunately I think this result has huge lessons for the republican cause. I suspect there won’t be a republican referendum this decade now.
I think as long as Chuck or his sons don’t come over here expecting some big royal event, there is no real impulse for change our system of government.
A key difference in the campaigns would be the fact that the Voice referendum didn’t include the element ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’. Everybody agrees theres a gap between First Nations people and the rest of Aus, (We don’t agree on the cause).
A Rebublican proposal is trying to change a system that, when comparing to other systems around the world, is working quite well.
this comment is a good example of how profoundly ill-informed Australians are with regard to our politics; our constitution is a colonialist relic with no inalienable rights and colossal centralisation of power, and people act like it’s actually somehow modern or progressive.
by and large Australians are unsophisticated, easily manipulated, political idiots.
anyone with half a brain would look at our system and laugh at the corruption it encourages, here sadly, we don’t have half a brain between us.
I wouldn’t call the constitution a relic, it is, albeit imperfectly, a functioning document, that maintains a certain cohesion in this country. Calling it a relic somewhat undermines that important use to the nation.
I don’t argue with the characterisation of Colonialist. It very much was set in these terms.
Colossal centralisation of power is an odd thing to claim, and possibly ill-informed.
The primacy of Parliaments, made up of many people, over Governors, single people, is very much established in this country but even the Governors retain some power away from Parliament in limited circumstances, think of GG’s power of dismissal,
The system of exclusive powers to the federals with the states retaining all other powers is an extremely important partition of power,
Each state retained their own Courts, Parliaments, and Governors and much of the public service supporting those remits separately from the Federal government, who also gained the full set of those positions to represent the country as one.
The country took lots of opportunities to ensure the dilution of power. And much of that is contained within the Constitution. So i would say it protects the devolvement of powers from any one body.
‘Inalienable rights’ has been considered by many in Australia. I think the closer you get to the detail the less atractive that proposition becomes. People have a responsibilty when they speak, ‘inalienable rights’ has proven to lead to a reduction in peoples calculation of their own responsibilties when speaking. The provisions for this in the US have been an example where such a rigid code can lead to poorer outcomes. The calculation here is, our system gets protection of speech about the same as places with the explicit right, but without some of the adverse consequences, because the protection remains somewhat fungible. Fungibilty is important to courts where they may wish to distinguish from precedent for legitimate reasons.
‘Modern’ should be left as a concept of the Post WW2 period. We are, as a whole, more like our ancestors than the word ‘modern’ allows. Modern has become a hopeful term that things are ‘better today than yesterday’, and thats not always true. Modern clouds the nuance.
This isn’t a bad or good thing, only an observation that the term ‘modern’ or ‘life today’, etc, is a mental separation from history that has proven unhelpful.
I never said the constitution or the nation is progressive, nor should it be assumed that is the goal. There are people who aren’t progressive in this nation, just as there are progressive people.
A well functioning founding document should seek to balance the views of the many without trampling the rights of the few. Thats not a progressive sentiment, thats a utilitarian sentiment. This is a strategy to stop endless cycles of violence/repression, allowing people to live in reasonable liberty. A strength of the Constitution is that it isn’t particularly prescriptive.
Indigenous disadvantage is a huge issue and I don’t want to trivialize it by comparison to less important topics but as far as these constitutional referendums are concerned there is some commonality. Both seek to add recognition and self-determination for Australians that are far more appropriate for current and future Australia than was anticipated in a document written near the height of the British Empire.
Parliament can legislate indigenous consultation and although it isn’t as resilient as a constitutional change it can achieve much the same outcome for now. We have gone as far as we can legislatively to become an independent sovereign nation and the replacement of the head of state with an Australian citizen is the last obstacle to assert our full nationhood.
Realistically both were going to be lost outside the inner cities. Neither are going to give a No voter cheaper beer and smokes. As long as we have a regional divide in economic status and education, conservatives have an almost insurmountable advantage. Racism might have played a role in the Voice outccome but it is just one of many buttons for a disinformation campaign to exploit.
Yeah, theres certainly some commonality, between the two.
Its a general needs problem with the Republic idea getting up in Australia though:
We are to all intents and purposes an independent nation. I would cite the fact that we are far more dependent on the US than the UK as a sign of our independence from our notional parent state (the UK). So there is no improvement, perceived or real, in driving further separation.
Unlike other countries who approach the question of independence we have peaceful and extremely friendly relations with the UK. Not to mention close family ties between the country’s.
The idea of Republics around the world are sufferring from a reputation problem. The abuse of the concept by all manner of abhorrent ‘leaders’ over the 20th century and continuing in this century has diminished the idea of freedom through the creation of a Republic. A key issue is Presidents have seemed to be able to gain and retain too much power, then if they’re able to get the military on side, well, at what point do we stop calling it a Republic? Again i only mean it has a reputational problem, not that, that would happen in Australia.
Your right about the City/Country divide.
I think this referendum was also a reiteration of the importance of having regard to people’s self interest. The Yes camp didn’t connect the Voice to how it will benefit everyone in the nation. While the No camp had no qualms about heaping theoretical loss at the doors of all self interested Australians. (I do not mean greedy btw, i only mean self interested).
Passing referendums is very difficult in Australia. People are easily scared away from change with emotional arguments unless there is a very clear message and benefit and I think the voice proposal was lacking. The only reason I voted Yes was to show solidarity with indigenous Australians and to oppose some of the ugly characters and lies coming from the No campaign. Try as I could reading the Uluru statement and other supporting arguments I couldn’t get excited about it and I can understand why people on the fence would reject constitutional change.
The government should put as much as they can into legislation and be satisfied and I think we should move on.
Unfortunately I think this result has huge lessons for the republican cause. I suspect there won’t be a republican referendum this decade now.
I think as long as Chuck or his sons don’t come over here expecting some big royal event, there is no real impulse for change our system of government.
A key difference in the campaigns would be the fact that the Voice referendum didn’t include the element ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’. Everybody agrees theres a gap between First Nations people and the rest of Aus, (We don’t agree on the cause). A Rebublican proposal is trying to change a system that, when comparing to other systems around the world, is working quite well.
this comment is a good example of how profoundly ill-informed Australians are with regard to our politics; our constitution is a colonialist relic with no inalienable rights and colossal centralisation of power, and people act like it’s actually somehow modern or progressive.
by and large Australians are unsophisticated, easily manipulated, political idiots.
anyone with half a brain would look at our system and laugh at the corruption it encourages, here sadly, we don’t have half a brain between us.
I wouldn’t call the constitution a relic, it is, albeit imperfectly, a functioning document, that maintains a certain cohesion in this country. Calling it a relic somewhat undermines that important use to the nation. I don’t argue with the characterisation of Colonialist. It very much was set in these terms.
Colossal centralisation of power is an odd thing to claim, and possibly ill-informed.
The country took lots of opportunities to ensure the dilution of power. And much of that is contained within the Constitution. So i would say it protects the devolvement of powers from any one body.
‘Inalienable rights’ has been considered by many in Australia. I think the closer you get to the detail the less atractive that proposition becomes. People have a responsibilty when they speak, ‘inalienable rights’ has proven to lead to a reduction in peoples calculation of their own responsibilties when speaking. The provisions for this in the US have been an example where such a rigid code can lead to poorer outcomes. The calculation here is, our system gets protection of speech about the same as places with the explicit right, but without some of the adverse consequences, because the protection remains somewhat fungible. Fungibilty is important to courts where they may wish to distinguish from precedent for legitimate reasons.
‘Modern’ should be left as a concept of the Post WW2 period. We are, as a whole, more like our ancestors than the word ‘modern’ allows. Modern has become a hopeful term that things are ‘better today than yesterday’, and thats not always true. Modern clouds the nuance. This isn’t a bad or good thing, only an observation that the term ‘modern’ or ‘life today’, etc, is a mental separation from history that has proven unhelpful.
I never said the constitution or the nation is progressive, nor should it be assumed that is the goal. There are people who aren’t progressive in this nation, just as there are progressive people. A well functioning founding document should seek to balance the views of the many without trampling the rights of the few. Thats not a progressive sentiment, thats a utilitarian sentiment. This is a strategy to stop endless cycles of violence/repression, allowing people to live in reasonable liberty. A strength of the Constitution is that it isn’t particularly prescriptive.
Indigenous disadvantage is a huge issue and I don’t want to trivialize it by comparison to less important topics but as far as these constitutional referendums are concerned there is some commonality. Both seek to add recognition and self-determination for Australians that are far more appropriate for current and future Australia than was anticipated in a document written near the height of the British Empire.
Parliament can legislate indigenous consultation and although it isn’t as resilient as a constitutional change it can achieve much the same outcome for now. We have gone as far as we can legislatively to become an independent sovereign nation and the replacement of the head of state with an Australian citizen is the last obstacle to assert our full nationhood.
Realistically both were going to be lost outside the inner cities. Neither are going to give a No voter cheaper beer and smokes. As long as we have a regional divide in economic status and education, conservatives have an almost insurmountable advantage. Racism might have played a role in the Voice outccome but it is just one of many buttons for a disinformation campaign to exploit.
Yeah, theres certainly some commonality, between the two. Its a general needs problem with the Republic idea getting up in Australia though:
We are to all intents and purposes an independent nation. I would cite the fact that we are far more dependent on the US than the UK as a sign of our independence from our notional parent state (the UK). So there is no improvement, perceived or real, in driving further separation.
Unlike other countries who approach the question of independence we have peaceful and extremely friendly relations with the UK. Not to mention close family ties between the country’s.
The idea of Republics around the world are sufferring from a reputation problem. The abuse of the concept by all manner of abhorrent ‘leaders’ over the 20th century and continuing in this century has diminished the idea of freedom through the creation of a Republic. A key issue is Presidents have seemed to be able to gain and retain too much power, then if they’re able to get the military on side, well, at what point do we stop calling it a Republic? Again i only mean it has a reputational problem, not that, that would happen in Australia.
Your right about the City/Country divide.
I think this referendum was also a reiteration of the importance of having regard to people’s self interest. The Yes camp didn’t connect the Voice to how it will benefit everyone in the nation. While the No camp had no qualms about heaping theoretical loss at the doors of all self interested Australians. (I do not mean greedy btw, i only mean self interested).