serious question - if Jews in a ghetto during WW2 got together some weapons, revolted, left the ghetto and killed a bunch of German civilians partying right outside the ghetto, would you call it “genocidal” and “terrorism” and say “yes, while Nazi Germany is bad, so are these Jews who committed terrorism”?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure I would. Mindless violence is never a good thing…
Most German citizens were not nazis, just as most Israeli citizens aren’t in favor of genocide. A powerful and motivated political minority is a scary thing indeed, kinda like Repubs in the US, or the current leaders of Israel, or Hamas, or the countless far-right Renaissances happening across Europe rn. Need I go on?
Again, I don’t disagree that Israel is genocidal. That doesn’t mean mindless violence and genocide in return are anywhere near the answer. There’s a reason MLK would leave cities if protesting turned into rioting. Even when you have the right answers, turning to violence isn’t a solution.
Does it suck to take the high road all the time? Yeah. Do you have to do it to not fall to the same level as the opponents? Also yes.
it doesn’t suck for you to take the high road, you’re sitting in the west living a comfortable life, it’s super easy for you to ‘condemn’ both sides and go on with your day. what are Gazans supposed to do? they’re living in hell on earth, and the entire world had turned their backs on them.
peacefully protest? they’ve tried that
try to get the word out about how bad their situation is? they’ve tried that
what should they have done instead? just do nothing and let Israel keep building settlements and murdering them and commit a slow genocide? I can’t blame them for violently struggling in whatever means possible. even under international law, occupied populations have the right to engage in armed struggle. it sucks that it came to this, but Israel is responsible for every death that happens because they want to commit genocide against the native population rather than peacefully coexist.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Not comparable. The white moderates that King was talking about here intended for time to do the work of social change. I’m not saying Palestinians should just wait around and get genocided, just that acts of violence against civilians aren’t going to do anything meaningful except lead to more loss of life.
Try some reading comprehension on for size btw. In the first sentence of the comment you replied to I say that occupied peoples absolutely have the right to struggle against their oppressor, just not the right to murder civilians indiscriminately.
Saying that Palestinian resistance is only legitimate if it meets the standard of perfect moral purity is exactly saying they should wait around and get genocided.
And you know what? They are getting genocided, right now, at this moment, Isreal is carrying out a campaign of extermination that will make October 2023 a subject of history books for centuries to come, and the hill you’ve chosen to die on is that the Palestinians are also imperfect.
Try some reading comprehension on for size btw.
Try talking like a normal person and not a smugness overdosing reddit shithead.
I say that occupied peoples absolutely have the right to struggle against their oppressor, just not the right to murder civilians indiscriminately.
No occupied person cares what you say they’re allowed to do, you privileged asshole. No resistance in history has ever risen to your standard anyway.
Yes they are absolutely going to be wiped out in response to the horrific recent actions of Hamas. It’s absolutely terrible, but a fourth grader could have seen it coming.
Also, stop painting Palestine and Hamas as the same portrait. They simply aren’t.
The Jews would have been justified in killing every German they could get their hands on if it could help stop the Holocaust.
A genocidal society has no right to claim the mercy of a civilian/soldier distinction. They do not recognize it themselves.
It is a horrible tragedy on a personal level. No one person has any power over the situation they find themselves in, but that is the brutal logic of war. Societies will feel less safe in engaging in targeting civilians if their own are subject to retaliation when they do so.
Look at pictures of Germany after the war and tell me it wasn’t violence against Germany. Are you fucking kidding me? Over 500k German civilians died in the bombing raids.
“It was just collateral damage” - the words of a fucking coward who refuse to admit what they’ve done
It sucks they died but ending the Holocaust and Nazi Germany was a moral necessity.
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
The fact that you can’t tell the difference between a music festival and the kind of infrastructure important to warfare that were bombed during WWII doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, but it does sadden me.
This is so absurdly nitpicky I’m not sure what to say. The bombings of Germany DEFINITELY damaged their industry, which helped end the war.
Are you really implying that no innocent civilians were butchered by the ground invasion of Europe? (Also, hilariously, you left out that Japan was literally defeated without a ground invasion of Japan. Same war, buddy.)
You just seem like you can’t accept wars mean violence against a people, not a military/government. It’s a child’s propaganda understanding of warfare that you have.
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
Japanese gov is irrelevant to this argument; don’t change the goalposts. It’s a different situation entirely, as the gov refused to back down after already being beaten in the actual theater of war. Bombing was the only way to avoid an incredibly costly land invasion of Japan.
Seems like you might benefit from opening up a history book.
Sitting on the side lines whining about “both sides bad!” during the literal Holocaust is not “taking the high road.” It’s being an unprincipled coward.
And MLK had pretty scathing words for people like you.
It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t actually represent Palestine and won the election by a 40% plurality in the mid 2000s and haven’t run an election since then. It’s almost like this little thing called nuance exists. It’s almost like I can denounce Hamas while also denouncing the IDF without it being anything related to “all sides bad”.
It’s almost like this little thing called nuance exists.
It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like It’s almost like
No thanks I’ll just keep winning arguments against the deluded fools that can’t accept anything outside their echo chamber as valid and moved to hexbear bc of it.
serious question - if Jews in a ghetto during WW2 got together some weapons, revolted, left the ghetto and killed a bunch of German civilians partying right outside the ghetto, would you call it “genocidal” and “terrorism” and say “yes, while Nazi Germany is bad, so are these Jews who committed terrorism”?
Yeah, I’m pretty sure I would. Mindless violence is never a good thing…
Most German citizens were not nazis, just as most Israeli citizens aren’t in favor of genocide. A powerful and motivated political minority is a scary thing indeed, kinda like Repubs in the US, or the current leaders of Israel, or Hamas, or the countless far-right Renaissances happening across Europe rn. Need I go on?
Again, I don’t disagree that Israel is genocidal. That doesn’t mean mindless violence and genocide in return are anywhere near the answer. There’s a reason MLK would leave cities if protesting turned into rioting. Even when you have the right answers, turning to violence isn’t a solution.
Does it suck to take the high road all the time? Yeah. Do you have to do it to not fall to the same level as the opponents? Also yes.
it doesn’t suck for you to take the high road, you’re sitting in the west living a comfortable life, it’s super easy for you to ‘condemn’ both sides and go on with your day. what are Gazans supposed to do? they’re living in hell on earth, and the entire world had turned their backs on them.
peacefully protest? they’ve tried that
try to get the word out about how bad their situation is? they’ve tried that
what should they have done instead? just do nothing and let Israel keep building settlements and murdering them and commit a slow genocide? I can’t blame them for violently struggling in whatever means possible. even under international law, occupied populations have the right to engage in armed struggle. it sucks that it came to this, but Israel is responsible for every death that happens because they want to commit genocide against the native population rather than peacefully coexist.
Occupied populations absolutely have the right to engage in an armed struggle, just not the right to murder…
I do sit in an ivory tower here, but so do you, and that doesn’t make either of our words ring less true.
Take the words and actions of MLK, somebody who actually accomplished great social change while not living in that ivory tower.
Hate begets hate.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.”
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
-MLK
Not comparable. The white moderates that King was talking about here intended for time to do the work of social change. I’m not saying Palestinians should just wait around and get genocided, just that acts of violence against civilians aren’t going to do anything meaningful except lead to more loss of life.
Try some reading comprehension on for size btw. In the first sentence of the comment you replied to I say that occupied peoples absolutely have the right to struggle against their oppressor, just not the right to murder civilians indiscriminately.
Yes comparable.
Saying that Palestinian resistance is only legitimate if it meets the standard of perfect moral purity is exactly saying they should wait around and get genocided.
And you know what? They are getting genocided, right now, at this moment, Isreal is carrying out a campaign of extermination that will make October 2023 a subject of history books for centuries to come, and the hill you’ve chosen to die on is that the Palestinians are also imperfect.
Try talking like a normal person and not a smugness overdosing reddit shithead.
No occupied person cares what you say they’re allowed to do, you privileged asshole. No resistance in history has ever risen to your standard anyway.
Yes they are absolutely going to be wiped out in response to the horrific recent actions of Hamas. It’s absolutely terrible, but a fourth grader could have seen it coming.
Also, stop painting Palestine and Hamas as the same portrait. They simply aren’t.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abu_Awwad#:~:text=Ali Abu Awwad
And there it is; the genocide justification we all knew was coming.
“And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.”
-Also MLK
The Jews would have been justified in killing every German they could get their hands on if it could help stop the Holocaust.
A genocidal society has no right to claim the mercy of a civilian/soldier distinction. They do not recognize it themselves.
It is a horrible tragedy on a personal level. No one person has any power over the situation they find themselves in, but that is the brutal logic of war. Societies will feel less safe in engaging in targeting civilians if their own are subject to retaliation when they do so.
But would it? No.
It wouldn’t help stop the holocaust, only create death and destruction, that’s kinda the whole point…
The death of your brother doesn’t make you want to forgive his murderer and instead radicalizes you more deeply against him.
Is Israel stopping the targeting of citizens now? No! They’ve cut off water and electricity to Gaza again.
Hate begets hate, dumbfuck.
Violence against Germany literally ended the Holocaust so you are just a clown.
I guess you would have sent thoughts and prayers to the extermination camps.
*violence against the German government and its armies.
Sorry you forgot a couple words there so I fixed it…
Or are we literally just rewriting history here?
Look at pictures of Germany after the war and tell me it wasn’t violence against Germany. Are you fucking kidding me? Over 500k German civilians died in the bombing raids.
“It was just collateral damage” - the words of a fucking coward who refuse to admit what they’ve done
It sucks they died but ending the Holocaust and Nazi Germany was a moral necessity.
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
The fact that you can’t tell the difference between a music festival and the kind of infrastructure important to warfare that were bombed during WWII doesn’t surprise me in the slightest, but it does sadden me.
This is so absurdly nitpicky I’m not sure what to say. The bombings of Germany DEFINITELY damaged their industry, which helped end the war.
Are you really implying that no innocent civilians were butchered by the ground invasion of Europe? (Also, hilariously, you left out that Japan was literally defeated without a ground invasion of Japan. Same war, buddy.)
You just seem like you can’t accept wars mean violence against a people, not a military/government. It’s a child’s propaganda understanding of warfare that you have.
Oh, is leveling Dresden with incindiary bombs targeting “the german government?” Is nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki “targeting the japanese army?”
Sorry, since when did anything other than land invasion end the European theater of wwII? I’m pretty sure it’s not widespread knowledge that Hitler killed himself in response to the bombing of Dresden…
Japanese gov is irrelevant to this argument; don’t change the goalposts. It’s a different situation entirely, as the gov refused to back down after already being beaten in the actual theater of war. Bombing was the only way to avoid an incredibly costly land invasion of Japan.
Seems like you might benefit from opening up a history book.
Sitting on the side lines whining about “both sides bad!” during the literal Holocaust is not “taking the high road.” It’s being an unprincipled coward.
And MLK had pretty scathing words for people like you.
It’s not “both sides bad”
It’s “murder of civilians and children is murder of civilians and children, even when it’s an oppressed group fighting back against oppressors.”
The fact that you can’t tell the difference tells me a lot. I’d also argue that it shows you to be the unprincipled one.
That’s just “both sides bad.”
And the fact that you can’t tell the difference tells me even more.
It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t actually represent Palestine and won the election by a 40% plurality in the mid 2000s and haven’t run an election since then. It’s almost like this little thing called nuance exists. It’s almost like I can denounce Hamas while also denouncing the IDF without it being anything related to “all sides bad”.
Believe it or not you can take a stance in support of Palestine without supporting mindless violence. Eg: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abu_Awwad#:~:text=Ali Abu Awwad
Oh my fucking God, go back to reddit, please!
No thanks I’ll just keep winning arguments against the deluded fools that can’t accept anything outside their echo chamber as valid and moved to hexbear bc of it.
Yeah that’s what’s important here.
Fucking ghoul.
dork