- cross-posted to:
- labour@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- labour@hexbear.net
cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1011094
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The original was posted on /r/aboringdystopia by /u/bisexualbestfriend on 2023-10-04 15:06:06.
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These posters make me want to organize.
It tells me that they think paying for graphics, ads etc are just a fraction of what I can gain.
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I suspect that’s why it’s hanging right above the fingerprint/face scanner punchcard kiosk.
Email the IWW, they’ll give you manuals.
Part of a union already UC system. They helped us get additional sick hours and pay during COVID. Plus additional time off.
Expanding the connections of the labor movement is never a bad thing. You never know when you’ll need help from a steel workers union, teamsters, etc.
Never forget: If a company doesn’t want you to have it, it’s probably a good for you.
Most companies don’t want you to drink cyanide, but it isn’t good for you. Most companies don’t want you getting hurt on the job. Most companies don’t want you drinking or doing drugs while using heavy equipment. All these things arent good for you.
I’m not saying to unionize or not, but the logic is fallacious.
My union got me more money in a single year than I will pay in dues for my entire career in at least 3 separate years in the 6 years I’ve been working for my employer.
I get leave each year that is slightly more than 20 percent of my work hours.
Unions are amazing for workers.
It’s amazing how anti union the US is. Unionise everything unless you want to be bent over and fucked by the long dick of capitalism.
My family is from West Virginia. They literally had battles for unions. Unions saved the state for a little while. Everyone I know there is also very anti-union. I don’t know how. This is why history is important, but they won’t teach you these parts of history in school.
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Thankfully I’m not in the US, you are correct.
You may know people who are paid more than a union equivalent, that’s the choice of the company. But a union will always help the little guy as has been shown time and time again throughout the world.
Employers paying above and beyond is not the norm, it’s not even the minority. It’s a scarcity. To say what you said above like you shouldn’t unionise because everyone isn’t a cunt, is a very poor view given to you and now you’re propagating their misinformation.
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Don’t trust unions - they can’t guarantee you benefits. Trust us, we guarantee the most exploitative conditions as long as you don’t organise!
That sarcasm is incredably subtle. Those on reddit tricked/paid to promote that sentiment would include your first sentence almost verbatim.
Don’t trust unions - they can’t guarantee you benefits.
Divided you beg. United you bargain.
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Oops, you replied to the wrong post. Whatever client your on, you can switch to a diffrent one easly. Hopefully it makes your life a little easier.
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What?
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How is this even legal? As a European I can’t understand how anyone falls for this blatant anti-union propaganda. They are obviously beneficial to workers (that’s literally why they exist) and I’ve never had to run anything by my union unless I believe I’m being unfairly treated by my employer.
Yes, from a European point of view this is something straight out of a bad comedy sketch. If unions would be bad for workers, why the hell would anyone want to advertise against them?
Over the last 11 years since I moved into my current role, my salary has risen by approximately £35k. In addition to this my conditions have improved and I work fewer hours. My yearly negotiated increase has always outstripped inflation and I have only lost one day’s pay due to strike action to achieve these rises.
The company I work for continues to post profits in the billions of £s, despite paying their workers fairly.
I’d say my monthly union dues of <£20 have served me pretty well.
Anyone advocating against a union either stands to lose out by unionisation (ie those at the top that would rather keep their bonuses/salaries as high as possible) or have completely bought in to the capitalist nonsense that is often thrown around about unions.
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In a capitalist society, people need money to survive. Capitalists want to hoard all the money for themselves while the poor do all the hard work for as little pay as possible. Unions aim to fix that problem.
There is no inherent contradiction between wanting a liveable wage for your work and criticizing capitalism at the same time.I wasn’t bashing capitalism at all. My comment was directed at the fact that it is often (quite ridiculously) suggested that unionisation and its pursuit to protect workers rights and improve pay and conditions lead to the downfall of businesses. It’s an obvious weapon to try and disuade employees from joining a union by leading them to believe that they might lose their job completely when the union forces them out of business.
It’s pretty obvious that capitalism has its flaws but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the alternatives usually don’t fair well. I don’t disagree with the ideology but I do believe that I am entitled to my fair share, after all, my bills are rising like everyone else’s. Why should my colleagues and I lose out so that a few at the top can fatten their pockets? They don’t pay me anymore than they need to - they compensate my colleagues and I sufficiently to make us do the job. If they pay less, I’ll look elsewhere and they know this by agreeing to the demands of my union.
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Free speech I suppose.
Illegal would be then telling them they cannot unionize, or they’ll face repercussions.
I can’t understand how anyone falls for this blatant anti-union propaganda
In amarica, there is no words to distinguish red (uncorrupted) and yellow (capitol sympathetic) unions. Their using the distrust their lackies created to ruin all unions.
Important point. We do have some words, I was stuck working for a ‘sweetheart union’ once.
Politics. Most conservatives are anti-union and pro-business in the US.
I work in a “right to work” state, which means you aren’t compelled to pay union dues, even if you directly benefit from one. This is specifically to undermine the power of unions which are overwhelmingly supportive of Democrats. Wooing union support is critical for them (see: Joe Biden in Michigan recently).
It literally is that simple.
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We have free speech in Europe too. Anyway, I originally thought the poster was hanging above a voting booth, but I see now it seems to be some kind of computer for staff to clock in and out of work. Still shitty but not quite as dystopian as I thought.
europe has just sneakier anti-labor laws. Neoliberals are de-regulating everything anyway.
Tf are you on?
Nordic states are having more far right victories resulting in ‘deregulation’. The same in Germany and France. Do I have to remind you the next ruling party of germany will most likely be an extreme right party?
“Oh no, I’ll have to go through someone who actually has my interests at heart and not my shitty manager! Damn unions!”
And no, you don’t have to go through the union instead of your supervisor/manager. In my union job, they’d send a witness/advocate along with someone if they had an issue where a manager was involved.
The union was corrupt, but despite that it was still the best factory job I’ve worked in (ok another one was also not bad but that was mostly because no one really gave a fuck about the stupid shit there and everyone just did their jobs without fucking with each other). The pay was high enough that when I was looking for something better, I realized a certification I had started wasn’t going to mean more money, just different work for similar money.
Yea. I had a shop steward sit in on all my meetings with management. They represent the union, it’s influence, and it’s contract. They make sure everyone is playing by the rules and management doesn’t take advantage of an employee that doesn’t know labor laws, policies and procedures, their work contract, or the union contract.
It wasn’t a requirement for meeting with management, but it was something a manager could not refuse if requested by the employee. Any meeting with management would be delayed until a shop steward was available.
I was a strong advocate for every employee to have one with all meetings with management.
Yeah, Amazon is trying to present it as extra red tape everyone will have to deal with, but it’s really the union will help you get through the company’s red tape. The union’s red tape is more about its own power structure, which will have the usual problems that go along with any kind of power, but the union still serves to balance the employer’s power.
Exactly. Also, if you ever hear saying “you won’t have a say, the union speaks FOR you” (yes I’ve seen this framing before) you can always respond that you ARE the union! That’s the entire point is that everyone in the union IS the union, it’s right there in the word.
It’s not a guarantee they have your interests and heart, but your odds are a lot better than your supervisor having your interests and heart.
Your supervisor has a duty to put the good of the company ahead of the good of the employee or they’re risking their own jobs.
interests and heart
Yeah, I hate it when my supervisor steals my vital organs.
It’s not a guarantee they have your interests and heart
No, but it’s at least in their job description to act accordingly.
That’s why I advise anyone who has anything important happening to them to first seek advise from an organization that deals with worker rights, a union or a lawyer, as HR are there to protect the company, not to help you.
If they help you, it’s only because that’s what’s beneficial to the company and their personal allegiances in the company.
Reasons not to join union:
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No guarantee that they will help at all mitigating our blatant exploitation of the workforce
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Uh, it is un-american.
The un-american argument always makes me laugh. Ah yes, Unions bad, good thing I live in the U.S.A where Unions aren’t a thing. no siree, you won’t find a single Union here, that’s for sure!
Correct! They’re un-american in this union of states…
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They have only one argument, and it’s pathetic and not even true. Dues without guarantee. lol
It doesn’t matter what their argument is, Amazon workers are probably smart enough to realize any anti-union advertising is because unions are good for workers and bad for Amazon.
I can’t believe imagine there’s a single Amazon worker who thinks Amazon has their best interest at heart or would spend money to save their employees money.
I guess those managers who fight the workers do believe that Amazon has their best interest at heart.
Believe it. I’m sure a factor in where Amazon locates its facilities is union presence and support, along with cost of living and education level. That is to say, lower income areas with an undereducated population and strong anti-labor politics. Obviously not possible in every region but a lot of the US is like a whole other world when you travel just outside the city.
At my FC, I would say 50% at best would even consider the question. MAGA/Trump support runs deep there. Nobody likes the company, yet they will happily take its side over their coworkers…
Straight lies. How can you tell someone that unions cannot guarantee anything?
Sure a union technically can not guarantee anything. But I’ll guarantee you’ll be in a million times stronger position with a union.
They’re also spreading this nonsense at my hospital where we’re actively organizing right now. It preys on people’s ignorance of how legal contracts work.
Your lease doesn’t guarantee that your landlord won’t violate its terms either. But it does give you the ammunition to take them to court and win compensation, if they do.
The same applies to a union contact. It’s legally binding in the same way. Sure the company technically can violate the terms of that agreement. But the union is going to escalate the issue to the NLRB and/or sue them in court, if they do. And you will win, if you provide the evidence that they violated the legally binding contract.
This is what disingenuous corporations call “not guaranteed”
I think what they’re trying to say is that being in a union, by itself doesn’t guarantee higher wages or better benefits. Which is true, but incredibly misleading since you sure as hell aren’t getting those wage/benefit increases without union membership.
“You can’t guarantee that your new collective bargaining agreement will be honored by us.”
It’s the company who has to sign off on the CBA, too.
A union can ASK for things, but it’s always the company guaranteeing it.
Unions literally cannot guarantee you money, dude. Other than what’s in their coffers, and what is “drawn up” in advance, collected for, and spelled out in a written agreement.
Especially fragile new unions, they don’t have jack shit going for them. The company isn’t going to help it form, and they might choose to fire dissenters attempting to unionize. During a strike or demonstrations, even with a formed union, the company isn’t going to pay the workers for not working. In this way, the company is correct in saying “there are no guarantees of pay”. Hell if they don’t like you there’s no guarantee of a job at all, if there’s no established union.
It’s all talk, speculation until a formed union draws up a legal, enforceable contract that both company & union agree to. CBA, as it’s called (Collective Bargaining Agreement).
The amount of effort your company goes into dissuading you from starting a Union, is proportional to how much you need one.
If conditions were left up to corporations children would still be working, we’d be doing 12 hours a day 6 days a week and Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol would be an autobiography on the current bestsellers list.
Corporations are interested in making profits, paying shareholders, managers getting their bonuses, workers are don’t make the top 10.
Never forget when Amazon called the guy who organized a strike “inarticulate” even though his speaking talent was literal poetry.
For those of you unaware, that was a dogwhistle. The strike leader was black.
Isn’t this illegal?
Corporations do it, so yes but functionally hell no.
It’s only illegal if you don’t have enough money to influence the labor board. :P
It’s only illegal for them to lie. This fits in the very narrow gray area of what they’re allowed to say because technically it’s not untrue. No contract in the world guarantees anything will or will not happen. A contract gives you the ammunition to sue the person you entered into the agreement with, if that person (or corporation) violates the agreed upon terms. So a union contract still gives you leverage and power over a corporation, but technically it doesn’t guarantee the terms of the contract will happen.
Edit to clarify: I’m not suggesting the anti-union propaganda has any validity. Just that they get away with this because technically it’s not lying.
Since non-union workers already don’t have any pay guarantee, the only difference would be you have someone who is literally paid to act in your interest that you get to talk to instead of your corporate overlords. And all your fellow workers will stop production to guarantee that Amazon doesn’t get any work done until they agree to raise wages.
So basically they’re saying, “why would you join a union because even if you manage to negotiate good terms, you can’t trust that we will keep our word”?
THIS IS THE ACTUAL TAKEAWAY
No, you missed it. If there was a strike or an agreement couldn’t be reached, in that way, you are not paid by the company & there are no guarantees the union has the money, means to pay you in full or at all. In this (rare) instance, they are technically correct & not lying.
Yeah, I thought it was wildly illegal for a company to try and directly influence union action?
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No, they are free to speak & have policies & put up little posters. At WalMart ~15 yrs ago we were made to watch an anti-union video & it basically amounted to assurances that we can trust MGMT with anything; they will be fair & do the right thing. Lol
Now I don’t know when it came about, think it’s relatively new, but if there’s a union trying to form & the company goes out of their way to “bust” it, the union is supposed to be automatically recognized. IIRC.
these kinds of posters are only illegal in the state of Minnesota, and even in MN that law was just passed this year
It’s not the posters alone, it’s that they’re located with a voting machine
Secret ballot elections are never held at the employer’s place of work, they are mailed to employees and then tallied at the NLRB office. That machine is something else entirely
It’s not illegal; it’s free speech. In their own business. It is incorrect, it is false propaganda, but it’s free speech.
That said, Amazon especially has engaged in enough illegal or at very least highly highly questionable practices in attempts to avoided workers unionizing. Such as: they had an agreement with the city to speed up a stop light, so organizers working in the parking lot didn’t have free time to effectively talk to workers leaving.
You can get in serious trouble, fired, for talking about unionizing at work in their workplace. Their rules. But the parking lot is fair game. So…they tilted the board to favor them, even there.
I did a seasonal stint at a Target Warehouse recently, and while there wasn’t anything blatantly antiunion, the effort is absolutely there. There is alot of talk about open door policies, open communication lines between management and workers, and a culture of “trust”. My emphasis, their words. They also have a standing policy that, out of context, is very odd. Knowing what I do about antiunion measures, it’s very blatant. They have a fiercely reinforced policy that there is to be no distribution of any papers or solicitation of any kind during work hours or on Target property. They attempt to rationale it with an example of people “asking for kids fundraising orders or public funding websites”. Personally I’ve never known those to be even a mild distraction at any workplace.
I understand not doing it during work hours, but it should absolutely be allowed to happen on the property.
im not american so these anti union things are always wild to see, like do these actually work?
Yes. Most people believe anything if you tell them often enough.
Yes. I hear people shit on unions every now and again, saying the same bs you hear on anti union propaganda.
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Other side of what?
Depends on the union. Sometimes they are just there as a mouthpiece for management. Sometimes they fight for worker’s rights.
but like, in a country that isnt run by companys as hard as usa, the latter is the default. nothing more nothing less. Are unions so busted in america even they cant help but filled with corruption?
During and still after the Cold war the US used state intelligence and right wing fanatics to break US labor power. The US is a country with low political intelligence and solidarity because of it.
It depends on the industry and honestly I’d be surprised if some unions in your country are not similar or worse. I’m in Chicago, which is one of the country’s biggest union strongholds, and construction unions here are often shitty and corrupt. Unions will bully and fight dirty against competing companies, sometimes even getting in spats between local chapters
if such a thing is present in my countries unions is so minuscule that its inconsequential, but if fairly confident (no country is perfect but you get my point) my countries isnt even close to whatever hellhole usa unions are
Might be a difference in the role the union has fallen into. The unions I’m talking about have been given way too much power through cronyism over the years, and at this point act more like a trade association/cartel acting for the businesses against other businesses, not for the workers against management
See cronyism isjt even possible and very much not allowed in mine and some other countries (can’t speak for everyone of course) And unions as again, other countries as well only have as much power as workers choosing then, no workers? No power Majority of workers use them? Now they finally have the weight they need
That’s what I imagine and hope is the default outside america, or at least it should be
Yeah my American brain has trouble comprehending a system where cronyism isn’t possible. Here most unions have an associated PAC and are very active with political donations and lobbying
What union doesn’t elect their union leadership?
Well some stewards are prone to bribing, special treatment by MGMT to turn a blind eye to certain things or back off. Others are competent, but maybe too busy for you. Others are elected because they’re popular or whatever, but as a steward they’re not knowledgeable or brave or effective. There’s lots of ways a union steward can go awry.
There’s lots of ways a union steward can go awry.
And lots of ways that a union steward can go right?
It tends to be an overall, net positive.
these probably don’t change any minds, but unions in general have been so stigmatized they they’re probably reinforcing the views of a fair number of people.
